The Secret to Making New Friends as an Adult | Marisa G. Franco | TED

譯者: Lilian Chiu 審譯者: SF Huang

Marisa Franco: Now, as an expert on friendship,

講者：身為友誼專家，

I'm up against a lot because of the hierarchy

我要面對的相當多，因為……

許多文化都把階級套用到愛上面。

that a lot of our cultures place on love, right?

With familial love at the top, with romantic love at the top,

家庭之愛在最上面， 情侶之愛在最上面，

and with platonic love, friendship love, really at the bottom.

柏拉圖式的愛和友誼之愛 則是被放在底部。

And with so many countries,

而現在在許多國家

people feeling so lonely and so disconnected,

人們感覺如此寂寞、沒有連結，

I believe that if we leave friendship at the bottom of this hierarchy,

我相信，如果我們把友誼 繼續留在階層的最底部，

it's like there's gold at our feet that we're treating as concrete.

就好像我們的腳下有黃金， 我們卻把它當混凝土來看待。

And so why are friendships so key?

為什麼友誼這麼重要？

Well, our bodies have always known

我們的身體一直知道我們需要 整個社區才能感覺完整。

that we need an entire community to feel whole.

And just being around a spouse, for example,

比如，只是在配偶身邊，

only surfaces one side of ourselves.

只能讓我們展現自己的其中一面。

So maybe the part of me that likes to garden or do yoga

也許有一部分的我喜歡園藝或瑜伽，

will begin to wither away if my spouse, for example,

這部分會因為我的配偶 不喜歡這些活動而漸漸消失。

doesn't like these activities.

But then when I'm around a friend,

但若我在一位朋友身邊， 我們能一起做園藝、種黃金葛，

I can garden and plant my pothos with them

或在另一位朋友身邊時 我們能一起做下犬式，

or around another friend that I can [do] downward facing dog with.

我會感覺我的整個身分都向外展開，

And I feel my entire identity, accordion outward,

unfold and fan out.

表露出來，打開來。

And I experience the full richness and complexities of who I am

我就能體驗「我是誰」的 完整豐富性和複雜性，

when I have an entire community to bring that out in me.

這需要整個社區才能 帶出我內在的這些。

And so that's one of the reasons why friendship is really important.

這是為什麼友誼很重要的原因之一。

But I think there's two reasons why we tend to really devalue it.

但我認為有兩個原因讓我們 通常會貶低它的價值。

One reason is because we just don't know how to make friends.

其中一個原因，是因為 我們不知道如何交朋友。

So luckily, I am going to help you with that a little bit today.

幸運的是，今天我會提供 一點這方面的幫助。

But the other reason has to do with something I like to call

另一個原因和我所謂的 「人的矛盾」有關。

the “paradox of people.”

That on the one hand we need people,

一方面，我們需要別人，

they make us feel healthy, they make us feel connected,

人能讓我們感到健康、有連結，

they make us feel like our very selves, right?

讓我們覺得能做自己，對吧？

But on the other hand, people are really scary.

但，另一方面，人很可怕。

They can dismiss us,

別人可能會嫌棄我們、拒絕我們，

they can reject us, they can actively harm us.

他們能主動傷害我們。

And so this sort of dilemma that we face,

所以，我們面臨的這種兩難，

the sort of entity that we need the most

我們最需要的實體 也是最能傷害我們的實體。

is also the entity that can harm us the most.

And how we walk across this tightrope handling this paradox of people

我們如何走這條鋼索， 如何處理這種人的矛盾，

says a lot about our ability to make and keep friends.

充分說明了我們結交朋友 和保持友誼的能力。

Because if we find ourselves stuck in the place

因為，如果我們發現自己卡住了，

where we see people as --

我們會把別人視為——

我們不信任別人，或把別人 視為有可能拒絕或傷害我們，

we mistrust people,

or we see people as potentially rejecting us and harming us,

it's really hard to foster connection.

這樣就很難培養連結。

And this really materialized for me one day when I had bought an apartment,

對我而言，它真正具體化 是在我買了一間公寓時，

and I was really excited to make friends with my neighbors

我很興奮想和鄰居交朋友，

because I'm like, "I'm going to be here for a while."

因為我想：「我會 在這裡待一陣子。」

And I see a couple of my neighbors in the hallway,

我在走廊上看到幾位鄰居，

when I'm walking home into my apartment with my ex at the time

那時我正要走回我的公寓，

同行的是我的前任， 他當時和我同居。

who was living with me.

我就直接從他們旁邊走過。

And I walk right past them, right?

Because paradox of people, I'm scared of them,

因為人的矛盾，我害怕他們，

他們可能會拒絕我，如果我去 自我介紹他們可能會覺得我很怪。

they might reject me.

They might see me as weird if I try to introduce myself.

So I scurry into my apartment

所以我匆匆進了我的公寓，

and my ex, he pushes me back into the hallway

而我的前任，他把我推回走廊上，

to talk to my neighbors and says to me, you know,

讓我去和鄰居說話，他對我說： 「你在寫關於朋友的書，

"You're writing this book on friends.

What would you tell other people who are in your situation?"

若有人在你這個處境， 你會怎麼跟他說？」

And so as I'm sort of stumbling back into the hallway,

所以，當我踉蹌地回到走廊上時，

I'm thinking about a few things that I have learned

我在想著我在認真研究友誼時

through studying friendship so intensely.

學到的幾件事。

And so two observations that I have on friendship

所以，就是我對友誼的兩項觀察，

and two takeaways for what we can do to make and keep friends.

及兩個重點說明我們能做什麼 來結交朋友和維持友誼。

First observation,

第一項觀察：

friendship does not happen organically in adulthood, right?

在成年期，友誼並不會自然發生。

And in fact, one study found

事實上，有一項研究發現，

that people that think that it happens based on luck

認為友誼會發生是靠運氣的那些人

are actually lonelier five years later,

五年後會比較寂寞，

whereas people that see it as happening based on effort

相對的，認為友誼 要靠努力贏得的那些人

are less lonely five years later.

五年後就比較沒那麼寂寞。

So what does that tell me?

這項發現對我的意義是，若我就只是

That if I was just there

hoping that my neighbors would someday try to be my friends,

希望我的鄰居有一天 會想試著和我交朋友，

it probably wouldn't happen, right?

可能就不會發生。

And so I would need to make that effort

我得付出努力才能夠交到朋友。

in order to be able to make friends.

But second observation that I have,

但，我從各種關於友誼的研究 整理出的第二項觀察

based on reading all the research on friendship,

is something called the “liking gap,”

是所謂的「喜歡落差」，

which is a phenomenon wherein when strangers interact and predict

它是一種現象，當陌生人 進行互動並預測

how likely the other person is to like them,

對方會有多喜歡自己時，

they underestimate how much the other person likes them.

會低估對方喜歡自己的程度。

So this research really suggests that we're less likely to be rejected

所以，這項研究指出，

我們被拒絕的可能性 比我們認為的還低。

than we think.

Which leads me to my first takeaway for making friends.

這就帶出關於交朋友的第一個重點。

If you want to make friends,

如果你想交朋友， 你就得假設別人喜歡你。

you have to assume that people like you, right?

The reason is, when researchers told people,

理由是，當研究者告訴受試者：

“Hey, you’re going to go into this group, and based on your personality profile,

「嘿，你要進入這個團體，

根據你的人格側寫檔案， 我們預測你會受到喜愛。」

we predict that you will be liked."

This was completely bogus, a total lie.

這完全是造假的，根本是個謊言。

But they found that when people went into this group of people,

但他們發現，當受試者 進入到這群人當中，

they became warmer, open, more friendly, because they made this assumption.

他們因為做了這個假設， 就變得更溫暖、開放、友善。

And so indeed, it became this self-fulfilling prophecy

它確實就成了自我應驗預言， 叫做「接受預言」。

called the “acceptance prophecy”.

And when we assume we'll be liked,

當我們假設別人會喜歡我們， 就會提升我們被喜歡的機會。

we make it more likely that we actually will be liked.

Whereas other research finds that people that tend to assume that they're rejected,

而其他研究發現， 傾向假設自己會被拒絕的人，

even when the circumstance is ambiguous,

即使情況還不明朗，比如， 我的朋友，也許他們只是

like, my friend, maybe they're just, like, hungry or something,

餓了之類的，而不是討厭我，

rather than that they hate me, right?

那些人卻會直接認為 「也許他們不喜歡我」，

Those people that go straight to "maybe they don't like me,"

他們就會變冷陌，

they actually become cold,

they actually become withdrawn and they reject people.

他們會變得沉默僻靜，

他們會拒絕別人，反過來 也就會被別人拒絕。

And then they get rejected in return.

So I'm thinking of these things in the hallway, you know,

所以我在想這些事， 在走廊上，走過我的鄰居，

right by my neighbors.

I'm thinking that, you know,

我在想，我不能等它自然發生，

I can't wait for this to happen organically.

OK, I'm afraid they're going to reject me,

好，我怕他們會拒絕我， 但機率應該比我認為的低，

but that's less likely to happen than I actually think.

我應該要假設他們會喜歡我。

I should assume that they're going to like me.

我還要提醒我自己最後 一件事，就是要去克服

And then one last thing I have to remind myself of

was to overcome something called “covert avoidance,”

所謂的「內隱逃避」，就是

which is our tendency to show up around other people physically,

我們人是出現在其他人身邊，

but check out mentally, right?

但其實人在心不在。

比如，你和朋友去殺時間， 而你一直在看手機，

Like, you’re hanging out with people and you’re on your phone,

or that would look like me just standing in the hallway

或者就像是我站在走廊上， 希望我的鄰居會來跟我說話。

hoping that my neighbors talk to me.

And so to make friends, you have to overcome covert avoidance

要交朋友，你就得克服內隱逃避。

by not just showing up,

不能只是人出現而已， 我就有出現在那走廊上，

I showed up in that hallway, right,

but you also have to engage with people when you get there.

你到了之後，還要與人互動。

So I ended up approaching my neighbors and saying,

所以，我最後是走向我的鄰居並說：

"Hi, I'm Marisa,

「嗨，我是瑪莉莎， 我剛搬進 103 號房，

I just moved into 103, It's really great to meet you."

很高興認識你們。」

And we start chatting.

我們開始聊天。

And at some point, you know, I asked them, like,

到了某個時點，我問他們：

"Is there a group where we can keep in touch?

「有沒有什麼團體， 讓我們可以保持聯絡？

我很樂意再多聊聊。」

I’d love to, you know, chat further.”

And they tell me about their cat group

他們告訴我他們的養貓群組，

that they have for cat parents in the Drew.

是茱兒的貓家長所組成的。

And I don't have a cat, but like,

我沒有養貓，但能連結 我就盡量把握。

I'll take connection when I can find it.

於是養貓群組變成了 半養貓半社交群組。

So the cat group became half cat group, half social group.

And I think sometimes we think that you know, a tiny act,

我想，有時我們認為，

一個小小的舉動，

something small like saying hello can have colossal consequences for our life.

很小的事，比如打招呼，

對我們的人生會有重大的影響。

But when we can lean into the sort of positive side of the paradox of people,

但，如果我們可以轉向 「人的矛盾」正向的那一面，

when we can initiate and assume people like us, right,

如果我們可以採取主動 並假設別人喜歡我們，

it can have colossal consequences.

就會有重大的影響。

Because since I said that "hello," me and my neighbors,

因為自從我說了「哈囉」 之後，我和我的鄰居，

we met up and we hung out every Friday,

我們就會見面、一起殺時間，

每週五都見面，保持社交距離，

socially distanced of the pandemic in the garden behind our apartment, right?

疫情期間，地點就在 我們公寓後面的花園中。

And so I think that this experience really taught me

我想，這段經歷真的教了我

the importance that while we all face this paradox of people,

很重要的是，雖然我們 都要面對「人的矛盾」，

while we all face this dilemma,

我們都要面對這種兩難，

that, if we want to make friends,

但如果我們想要交朋友，

if we want to connect with people,

如果我們想與人連結，

we have to be able to move away

我們就必須要能夠

遠離我們自己擔心害怕 且無法信任人的那部分，

from the part of ourselves that is fearful, that is mistrustful,

that assumes people will harm or reject us

假設別人會傷害 或拒絕我們的那部分。

and turn towards the part of ourselves

轉向我們自己單純想要愛人 並與人連結的那部分，

that simply wants to love and connect with people

and can ready ourselves to engage in these new connections with optimism

讓自己做好準備，帶著樂觀 與希望投入這些新的互動中。

and with hope.

You know, my niece read my book "Platonic,"

我的姪女讀了我的書《柏拉圖式》，

and one thing that she took away from it was that for friendship to happen,

她學到的一個重點是，

要讓友誼發生，

someone has to be brave.

必須要有人鼓起勇氣。

So be brave.

所以，鼓起勇氣吧。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Whitney Pennington Rodgers: Thank you, Marisa.

主持人：謝謝你，瑪莉莎。

I loved all of that.

所有的內容我都很喜歡， 且我在聊天室看到

And I could see in the chat

that a lot of the members also really love some of the things you shared there.

許多會員也都很喜歡 你分享的一些東西。

So thank you so much for that wonderful talk

所以很謝謝你帶來這麼棒的演說，

and for those tips which we will dive into in this conversation.

及那些祕訣，我們等下 會在談話中再多探究。

And, you know, I think just to sort of start,

我想，一開始先來談談，

your line of work is just so interesting.

你做的這一行很有趣。

Friendship is, it seems such a unique area to research.

友誼似乎是個相當獨特的研究領域。

And I actually want to read something back to you from your book

先讓我讀一段出自你書中的內容，

to help us understand a little bit more

它能協助我們更多了解一點

about just the importance of this type of relationship.

這種關係的重要性。

You say, “Friendship, in releasing the relationship pressure valve,

你說：「友誼， 在排解關係壓力方面，

infuses us with joy like no other relationship.

能帶給我們喜悅， 是其他關係辦不到的。

Without needing to plan for retirement,

不需要為退休做計畫、 滿足彼此的性需求，

fulfill each other's sexual needs

and work out who should be scrubbing the shower grime,

也不用協調誰來刷淋浴間的髒污。

we are free to make friendship territories of pleasure."

我們可以很自由地建立 愉悅的友誼領域。

你能否多聊聊這個主題，

So can you talk a little bit more about this

and just why friendship holds such an important role

以及為什麼友誼在我們的 人生中扮演如此重要的角色？

in all of our lives?

MF: Yeah, yeah.

講者：好的。

Well, first of all, I'll take a step back and say, like, clearly,

首先，我想先退一步說， 很明顯連結對人人都很重要。

connection is so central to all of us.

You know, the research finds that, for example,

研究發現，比如，

loneliness is more toxic for your body than having a poor diet or not exercising.

寂寞對於你身體的傷害 大於糟糕的飲食

或不運動。

And these are things that we talk about in the public health conscious,

我們有公共衛生意識 所以會談到這些，

but we don't talk about social connection enough.

但我們對社交連結談得還不夠多。

Maybe for our UK folks, you all have a prime minister of loneliness.

也許對英國的朋友而言， 你們都有個寂寞首相。

So it's a little bit different, right?

所以有點不同，對吧？

But when we talk about the impact of loneliness,

但，談到寂寞的影響，

there's actually three different dimensions of loneliness.

寂寞其實有三個不同的維度。

There is intimate loneliness,

有親密寂寞，

which is the desire for someone to be very intimate with.

也就是渴望能有個非常親密的人。

There's also relational loneliness,

也有關係寂寞，

which is the desire for someone that feels as close to us as a friend might.

渴望有個人能有 像朋友一樣的親近感。

And then there's collective loneliness,

接著還有集體寂寞，

也就是說，我渴望成為團體的 一部分且一起朝共同目標邁進。

which means I desire to be part of a group working towards a common goal.

And this research on loneliness really suggests that, just like I said,

而這項關於寂寞的研究指出，

如我先前所言，我們需要 整個社區才能感到完整。

we really do need an entire community to feel whole.

Because if we just focus on being very nuclear, you know,

因為如果我們只專注在 核心家庭，有個配偶就好，

just having a spouse

and that being the center of all of our connections, right,

它就是我們所有連結的中心，

that’s maybe touching on our intimate loneliness,

那也許可以處理我們的親密寂寞，

but not our relational, not our collective, right?

但沒有處理關係、集體寂寞。

And so I think a lot of us found this in the pandemic that,

我認為很多人在疫情當中 就是這種狀況，

we may have been home with the spouse or partner that we really loved a lot,

我們可能和配偶或我們 深愛的伴侶一同在家，

but we still ended up feeling lonely.

但我們最後仍然感到寂寞。

And that's because as social species, as social creatures,

因為人類是社交的物種， 是社交的生物，

like, we just need an entire community to fulfill us.

我們需要整個社區才能滿足我們。

WPR: You touched on this a little bit in the talk,

主持人：你在演說中 有談到一點這個，

and in the book, you separate, sort of,

在書中，你把你對 友誼的看法分為兩類。

the way you think about friendship to two categories.

You talk about, you know, sort of a backward look

你談到回頭看我們 在傳統上對友誼的感受，

at how we've traditionally experienced friendship,

接著你放眼未來，談我們 要如何建立更好的關係，

and then you look forward at how we could build better relationships,

better platonic relationships.

更好的柏拉圖式關係。

And so if we could just talk a little bit about sort of that first section,

我們能不能談談那第一部分，

just diving into how we as a culture tend to think about friendship

探討一下我們這個文化 傾向如何看待友誼，

and how does this really impact the way that we actually approach it?

以及這實際上如何影響我們的做法？

MF: Yeah, so I'm reading all the research on friendship,

講者：我在讀各種關於友誼的研究，

and what sort of materializes before my eyes

而在我眼前具像化的是

is that our personalities are fundamentally a reflection

我們的性格基本上反映出

of our experiences of connection or disconnection, right?

我們對於連結或疏離的經歷體驗。

在某些層面上，我們的性格

Like, in some ways our personalities are coping mechanisms

會根據經歷過的連結或疏離體驗 來發展出應對機制。

from the experiences of connection or disconnection we've received.

So whether you are friendly, open, warm,

所以，你是否友善、開放、溫暖、

vulnerable, trusting, cynical, aggressive, even violent,

脆弱、信任人、憤世嫉俗、 有侵略性、甚至暴力，

all of this is predicted by what your history of connection

要推測這些都可以看

你過去的連結或疏離史是怎樣的。

or lack thereof looks like.

So how we've connected really affects who we are.

所以我們的連結如何 會影響到我們是怎樣的人。

But not only that,

但不僅如此，我們是怎樣的人 也會影響我們如何連結。

who we are really affects how we connect, right?

Those people that have that history of healthy relationships,

過往關係很健康的人，

they have an internal set of beliefs within them

他們內在會有一組信念，

that allows them to continue to facilitate healthy relationships.

讓他們能夠持續促成健康的關係。

This is, if people are familiar with “attachment theory,”

如果你熟悉依附理論的話，這就是

securely attached people, who think others can be trusted,

有安全感依附的人，他們認為

他們可以信任他人，可以表現脆弱，

who think they can be vulnerable,

who think they can turn to people for support, right?

可以向他人尋求支助。

他們帶著這組信念進入到新關係中，

And they go into new relationships with this set of beliefs

that allows them to continue to create these new relationships.

這組信念讓他們能 持續創造這種新關係。

Whereas people who have had difficult previous relationships,

相對的，過去關係很艱難的人，

those can be internalized as a belief system

那些經歷可能會被內化成信念系統，

that then can impede their ability to foster further connections, right?

接著，這個系統可能會妨礙 他們培養進一步連結的能力。

Because they may think "people are going to reject me,"

因為他們可能會想「別人會 拒絕我」、「我不能脆弱」、

that "I can't be vulnerable,"

「我在任何人身邊都永遠無法 感到安全」，即使他很安全，

that "I can never feel safe around anybody,"

even when someone is safe,

仍然抱持那樣的假設和那樣的判斷。

they're still holding that assumption and that judgment, right?

而我希望《柏拉圖式》能做的， 因為我知道有人聽到這些會說：

And so what I want "Platonic" to do,

because I know some people hear this and they're like,

「有健康童年的人真好。

"Good for those people with healthy childhoods, you know, whatever.

隨便啦。我猜我是注定沒救了。」

For me, I guess I'm doomed."

Absolutely not.

絕對不是這樣。

WPR: Your work is focused specifically on adult friendships,

主持人：你的研究明確 著重在成人的友誼上，

which, for a lot of the reasons you've already outlined,

你剛才已經概述過許多理由，

seem like are just really challenging for us to develop.

我們很多人似乎 很難發展出成人的友誼。

But I guess, can you talk about sort of, why this breakdown happens

但，你能不能談談 這個問題是怎麼發生的？

and really when we start to see that it becomes more difficult

以及何時我們會開始發現越來越

難用小時候的方式來交朋友？

for people to make friends in the same way

as you did when you were kids?

MF: Yeah.

講者：好的，當我說在成人期 友誼並不會自然發生，

So when I say friendship doesn't happen organically in adulthood,

I don't mean that friendship doesn't happen organically in childhood,

我的意思並不是在童年時期 友誼不會自然發生，

because for children it often does.

因為對孩童而言通常是會的。

And they have certain ingredients in their environment

在他們的環境中有某些因素

that really foster friendship.

能促進友誼。

So Rebecca G. Adams, she's a sociologist,

社會學家瑞貝卡 ‧ 亞當斯說過，

and she says, you know, for friendship to be fostered organically,

若要讓友誼自然培養出來，

you need to have this repeated unplanned interaction

必須要不斷有未經規劃的互動，

and the shared vulnerability, right?

以及共同的脆弱。

And so in school we have that.

在學校我們有這些。

We have that through our lunch period.

在午餐時間有、

We have that through our gym, we have that through our recess, right,

在體育課時間有、在下課時間有，

we're seeing people every day,

我們每天都會見到人，

we're letting our guard down,

我們會放下心防，

we end up sort of just developing these friendships.

最後我們就在發展友誼了。

But when you think about adults going into the working worlds,

但，想想進入職場的成人，

you may have repeated unplanned interaction with your colleagues,

你和同事之間可能會 不斷有未經規劃的互動，

less so now that we're doing more hybrid and remote workplace, right?

現在可能少一點因為有更多 混合式和遠端工作模式。

But we're often not as vulnerable in the workplace.

但在工作場所我們通常 沒有那麼脆弱。

And that's why one study, and again, this is caveat, US context,

這就是為什麼有一項 針對美國做的研究，

one study found that the more time people spend together at work,

發現人在工作上相處時間越多， 感受的親近度就會越低。

the less close that they feel.

And so we need to recognize that as adults,

所以我們得要認清，身為成人，

we don't have the same infrastructure we had as kids.

我們的基礎和兒時是不同的。

所以我們不能仰賴同樣的假設，認為

So we can't rely on the same set of assumptions that,

oh, this is just going to happen,

喔，這之後就會發生， 我不用嘗試，我不用主動。

I don't have to try, I don't have to initiate.

Because as I shared from that previous research study, if we think that way,

因為正如我先前提到的研究 發現，如果我們那樣想，

for a lot of us, it won't happen.

很可能就不會發生。

WPR: And I think also just in thinking

主持人：所以，我在想

about what friendship brings to the table for you,

友誼帶給你什麼？

how it benefits you,

它對你有什麼益處？

you have this phrase in your book

你的書中有一句話：「和他人 連結讓我們能成為自己。」

where you say, “Connecting to others makes us ourselves.”

And it's about much more than just the pleasure of connection there.

那遠不只是連結的愉悅。

Can you explain a little bit about that?

你能否稍做解釋呢？

MF: Yeah. So Harry Stack Sullivan, he's a psychiatrist,

哈利‧史塔克‧蘇利文 是精神病學家，

and he has this theory called the “theory of chums,”

他有個理論叫「好友理論」，

which is basically that our chums or our friends earlier in life,

基本上是說，我們在人生 早期的好友或朋友，

they provide us with the sort of relationship template

他們提供給我們類似關係模板，

that we take on into our future.

我們會把模板帶到未來。

So it allows us to continue to connect throughout life, right?

那就讓我們能夠在一生中 持續和人連結。

And there is some research that finds that if we connect in childhood,

有些研究發現，如果我們 在童年時期有好朋友的連結，

we have good friends in childhood,

成年後就會有比較高的 自尊心，比較有同理心。

we have higher self-esteem in adulthood,

we're more empathic in adulthood, right?

所以他主張

And so he kind of argues that the therapy experience

治療經歷就很類似

is similar to the chumship experience,

好友關係，在這種 關係中你和你的朋友

in that with your friends,

you share things that you feel like you should be ashamed of, right?

會分享你覺得你應該 感到羞恥的事情。

And when you are ashamed of something,

當你對某事感到羞恥，

you're not integrating it into your entire personality.

就不會把它整合到 你完整的人格當中。

你會試著把它推開、壓抑它， 不讓它和你畫上等號。

You're trying to push it away and suppress it

and not make it who you are.

And the shame can really take over your whole personality

而羞恥可以接管你的整個人格，因為

because you're pushing away this part of who you are that you think is shameful.

你想把你認為你自己 很羞恥的部分給推開。

但，接著，你的人格 有好大一部分會花在

But then so much of your personality is spent

focusing on making sure nobody finds out this thing, right?

專心確保沒有人會發現這件事。

And so that's why shame can be so encompassing and enveloping.

那就是為什麼羞恥會這麼 無所不包、籠罩一切。

But what Stack Sullivan argues,

但史塔克‧蘇利文的主張是，

is that when kids share this shame with their friends

當孩子和朋友分享他們的羞恥，

and their friends are like, you know, we still love you.

而他們的朋友仍然愛他們。

You know, this isn't a big deal for us, right?

這對我們來說沒什麼大不了吧？

And we still think you're amazing and we accept that about you, right?

我們仍然認為你很棒， 我們接受你的那一點。

We begin to be able to accept it in ourselves

我們就會開始能接受 它是我們的一部分，

and to bring whatever we felt shame about,

且不論我們感到羞恥的是什麼，

to see it as just part of our personalities

都能將之視為我們人格的一部分，

rather than antithetical to the personality that we want to have.

而非和我們所想要的人格 相對立的部分。

And we are able to sort of relinquish all of the energies

我們就能夠可以說是放掉

我們為了試圖把它推開 所花費的所有能量。

that we spend trying to push this thing away.

And so in that way,

用那樣的方式，

the experience of experiencing that platonic love from our friends,

感受到我們與朋友間 柏拉圖式的愛的這種經歷，

especially at that time in childhood, teenagers,

特別是在童年、青春期，

where we're very high in shame,

我們有非常高的羞恥感， 羞恥感最高的時期，

we're like highest in shame

than throughout our whole lifespan, right?

比一生其他時期都還要高。

That our friends are there at that time when we're so high in shame,

我們的羞恥感如此高的時候， 我們的朋友在那裡

to help us integrate that and to help us connect to all sides of ourselves

幫助我們將之整合，也幫助 我們連結我們自己的各面向，

so that we sort of begin to become who we fully are.

這樣我們才能開始變成完整的自己。

WPR: It's just so interesting how much vulnerability and shame play into this.

主持人：很有意思，脆弱 和羞恥在這邊如此重要。

And in a way, it seems like on the one hand,

在某種層面上，似乎一方面

as you get more confident,

當你取得更多信心，你就開始

you start to lose some of the ability to make new friends,

失去一些交新朋友的能力，

but also using that confidence,

但，你所需要的卻又是

leaning into it to actually make the friends is what you need.

需要運用信心去結交朋友。

So it's fascinating.

那很迷人。

Well, I want to dive into some of the member questions we're receiving

我想來探討會員傳給我們的 一些問題，也都很有意思。

because they're also really interesting.

So TED member Arnoldo, they ask,

TED 會員阿諾多問道： 「已婚人士通常會抱怨

"Married people often complain about lack of time

to cultivate friendships outside of the marital circle.

沒有時間去培養婚姻圈以外的友誼。

What insights have you gained in your research

你的研究有沒有得出什麼相關洞見，

about the effects of outside friendships in a couple's relationship?"

能說明外部友誼 在夫妻關係中的影響？

MF: Oh, I love this question.

講者：我愛這個問題。

(Laughs)

（笑）

I think that having outside friendships

我認為，

要擁有健康的婚姻就需要有 外部的友誼，我真的這麼想。

is necessary for having a healthy marriage.

I do.

And this is where I'm coming from with that.

我會這麼說是因為，

The research basically finds that if I make a friend,

基本上，研究發現，

若我交一個朋友，除了我， 我的配偶同樣也會比較不憂鬱，

I'm not only less depressed, but my spouse is too.

It also finds that when you get into conflict with your spouse,

研究也發現，當你和配偶發生衝突，

it negatively impacts your release of a stress hormone cortisol, right?

會對你釋放壓力荷爾蒙的可體松 產生負面影響，對吧?

But if you have quality connection outside of that marriage,

但若你在婚姻外擁有有品質的 連結，這影響就不會發生。

that doesn't happen.

Your cortisol release is normal, right?

你的可體松釋放是正常的。

Other research that finds that, particularly for women

其他研究發現，

特別是親密關係比較密切的女性，

who tend to have more close intimate relationships,

when they go through difficulties within that partnership,

當她們在和伴侶的關係出現困難時，

they are more resilient to it when they have this outside support, right?

若有外部支持，她們 對困難的韌性也會比較強。

And so it's just like, if I can access this other person

就好像，如果我能接觸另一個人，

to center me during times of stress in my marriage,

在我婚姻的緊張時期能平靜下來，

I can return to that marriage in a centered and grounded way.

我就能以一種平靜、 穩定的方式返回那段婚姻中。

And that's a resource for me, and it's a resource for my spouse.

那對我而言是種資源，

對我的配偶而言也是種資源。

Where we see that people

至於那些只和配偶有 密切連結的人，我們發現，

that only have that close connection with their spouse,

they have high rates of what's called concordance, which means that,

有很高比例的人都會有 「調和一致」，意思就是，

however your spouse feels is kind of how you feel.

配偶的感覺就是你的感覺。

Their, sort of, energy affects you a lot more

若你尋求支持的對象只有配偶， 配偶的能量對你影響就較大。

when they're the only person that you're looking to for support.

And so what happens is like,

所以發生的狀況就是，

the natural ebbs and flows that can happen in a marriage,

婚姻中會有自然的潮起潮落，

they’re so much more impacted,

它們會受到更多影響，

and there's so much more devastated during those times of ebbs

低潮的時候就更讓人心力交瘁，

because they don't have that support outside of the relationship.

因為他們沒有關係之外的支持。

所以我認為，我們有時會想：

So I think sometimes we see, we think of like,

"Oh, are my friends a threat to my spouse?

「喔，我的朋友 對我的配偶是種威脅嗎？

My spouse is spending time with their friends,

我的配偶花時間和自己朋友 相處，卻不給我時間。」

they're not spending time with me."

But if we understand more broadly the importance of friendship

但如果我們能更廣泛地 了解友誼的重要性，

and how it makes every other relationship in our life better,

及友誼如何讓我們 人生中的其他關係變更好，

we will see that there's actually synergy between these relationships.

就會發現在這些關係間 其實有著協同增效作用。

我的配偶在這段關係之外 還有其他朋友，

That my spouse having friends outside of this relationship

is what makes them a better spouse for me.

對我而言，他也會變成更好的配偶。

WPR: So, so much of it has to do with the way we just think

主持人：所以有很大一部分 是關聯到我們如何看待

about the role friendships play in our lives.

友誼在我們人生中扮演的角色。

We have lots of questions that are coming in

我們收到了很多問題都是關於

about, sort of, the steps to actually making friends.

實際上去交朋友的步驟。

And I think before we get into some of those specific questions,

我想在我們進入探討那些問題之前，

I know you, in the talk, sort of shared --

你在演說的一開始分享了兩個祕訣，

you started with two tips,

this idea of first, assuming that people like you

首先是要假設別人會喜歡你，

and then overcoming what you call covert avoidance

接著是克服你所謂的內隱逃避，

or that urge to sort of mentally check out when you're meeting someone new.

或者說在你和新認識的人 見面時會想神遊的慾望。

What are some of the other ways that you recommend people try to use

你能不能再推薦大家一些其他方式，

有什麼樣的工具 可以用來建立新關係？

tools that people use to build new friendships?

MF: So I can walk through my own experience of making a bunch of friends

講者：我可以講我自己 交了一票朋友的經歷，

and share this in a story.

用故事來分享。

I went to Mexico City alone and was there for 10 days

我獨自前往墨西哥市待了十天，

心想，如果我要在這裡待十天，

and was like, OK, if I spend ten days here and don't make any friends,

若沒有交朋友，我會非常寂寞。

I'm going to be very lonely.

So how did I make friends when I was there?

所以，我在那裡時如何交朋友？

First I went to a coffee shop.

首先我去了咖啡廳，

I heard another American there and I knew, you know,

我聽到那裡有另一位美國人，

我知道他拒絕我的可能性 比我想的還低，

he's less likely to reject me than I think.

我也知道關於轉變者的研究：

I also knew the research on transitioners, right?

People that are in times of transition are most open to friendship.

正在轉變時期中的人 對於友誼是最開放的。

So people that are traveling, people that have just moved to the city,

也就是在旅行的人、 剛搬到城市裡的人、

people that have just started school, people that have just retired, right?

剛入學的人、剛退休的人。

Those are the people to try to connect with versus, you know,

這些人是會試圖 連結的人，相對的則是

someone who's been here for a while and already has an established network.

在這裡好一陣子 且已經建立好網路的人。

我知道這個傢伙是個轉變者，

So I knew this guy's a transitioner

and he's less likely to reject me than I think.

且他拒絕我的可能性比我想的還低。

So I'm going to engage with him.

所以我要去和他互動，

And I asked, you know, where are you from?

我問他來自哪裡， 我說我也是美國來的。

Like, I'm from the US too.

We start chatting and I end up inviting him to a meetup that night,

我們開始聊天，

最後我邀請他去參加 那晚的一場聚會，

and it’s like a language exchange meetup.

那是場語言交流聚會。

And at that language exchange meetup,

在那場語言交流聚會上， 我又遇到了很酷的人，我說：

I meet someone else who's cool, and I say, you know,

“Do you want to come to this Lucha Libre wrestling match with me?”

「你想跟我去看墨西哥摔角嗎？」

Then he said, yes, and I think ...

他說好，我認為……

You know what I realized, too, from the research on friendship,

這也是我從友誼的研究中了解到的，

I used to think that making friends was about being interesting, being smart,

我以前認為交朋友的重點在於

要表現得很有趣、很聰明、 有洞見、有魅力、有娛樂性。

being insightful, being charismatic, being entertaining.

But in fact, people report that this entertainment factor

但事實上大家認為

他們希望朋友身上有的特質中， 娛樂因素是最不重要的。

is the least important quality they look for in a friend.

And the most important quality that they look for

他們尋求的特質中最重要的

is someone who makes them feel like they matter.

就是這個人要讓他們 感覺到他們很重要。

So for me, if I want to connect with someone,

所以，對我而言，

若我想和人連結，重點 不在我讓他們印象深刻，

it's not about me trying to impress them.

重點在我能讓他們感到被重視，

It's about me trying to make them feel valued and, you know,

和他們打招呼，和他們互動， 告訴他們我喜歡他們的原因，

say hello to them and engage with them and tell them what I like about them

告訴他們我欣賞他們的什麼。

and tell them what I appreciate about them, right?

There’s this study that looked at friendship,

有一個探討友誼的研究，

budding friendship groups, for like 12 weeks,

剛萌芽的友誼團體，大約十二週，

which of these pairs ended up becoming friends.

看有哪幾對最後變成朋友。

And it was the ones that shared the most affirmation

變成朋友的那幾對是

最能肯定彼此，對彼此 展現感情的那幾對。

and affection towards each other, right?

And so, just to go even deeper into the research rabbit hole,

所以，在更深入的研究中，

there’s a theory called “risk regulation theory,”

有個理論叫做「風險 管理理論」，它指出，

which indicates that we decide how much to invest in a relationship

我們決定對一段關係要投資多少，

based on our view of how likely we are to get rejected.

根據的是我們認為 我們被拒絕的可能性如何。

So when we show people "I like you," we're telling them,

所以當我們對別人展現「我 喜歡你」，就是在告訴他們：

"Hey, you're not going to get rejected if you try to be friends with me."

「如果你想試著和我交朋友， 你不會被拒絕。」

And that makes people really feel safe connecting with us, right?

那會讓別人覺得 和我們連結相當安全。

So I was both engaging with these people

我一方面在和這些人往來，

and I was trying to make them feel loved

另一方面在試圖

在我向他們伸出手的時候， 告訴他們我認為

and tell them how great I thought they were

and how happy I am to meet them as I reached out to them.

他們有多棒以及我有 多開心能認識他們。

And then I went to my Spanish class,

接著我去上西班牙語課，

which, if you don't have any friends,

如果你沒有任何朋友， 我在這方面的建議是

what I recommend is that you join something that's repeated over time.

去參加過一陣子就要 上一次課的課程。

And remember,

別忘了，我說過，重複性 未經規劃的互動和共同的脆弱

I said repeated unplanned interaction and shared vulnerability

is that infrastructure that kids have for friends

是孩子交友的基礎， 而我們成人很缺乏，所以，

that we lack as adults.

So as adults, we really need to recreate that infrastructure.

身為成人，我們很需要 重新創造那基礎。

And so if you join like, a social group that's repeated over time,

所以如果你加入了比如每一段 時間就會有一次的社交團體，

turn your hobby into a community, right,

把你的嗜好轉成社群，

that's a really important way to make friends.

那是交朋友的重要方式。

So for me, it's I want to take the Spanish class

以我為例，我喜歡學語言 所以我去參加西班牙語課。

because I love learning languages.

對你可能是足球隊、即興 演出隊、健行隊、冥想團體，

For you, it might be football team,

improv team, hiking team, meditation group,

but it's just finding something,

重要的是去找到它，去找到 和這個嗜好相關的團體。

finding a group that meets around this hobby.

因為當你找到過一陣子 就要做一次的事情，

Because when you find something that's repeated over time,

what happens is something called the “mere exposure effect” sets in.

所謂的「單純曝光效應」 就會開始作用。

The mere exposure effect describes our tendency to unconsciously,

單純曝光效應指的是我們會傾向

completely unconsciously, like people just because they are familiar to us.

喜歡我們所熟悉的人， 且是完全無意識的。

So, for example, this researcher found

所以，比如這位研究者

that when he planted women into a large psychology lecture,

安插一位女子到一堂 人很多的心理學課上課，

at the end of the semester,

學期末時，

none of the students remembered the woman,

沒有學生記得這名女子，

but they reported liking the woman who showed up to the most classes,

但他們陳述他們對這名幾乎 都有出席的女子的喜好程度

20 percent more than the woman that didn't show up for any, right?

比其他沒有出席的女子還要高 20%。

沒有人記得她，但他們很喜歡她，

Nobody remembered her, but they liked her a lot

because they had seen her face, like this is our brain, right?

因為他們見過她的臉， 這好像就在我們的腦中。

And what I think the other implication of mere exposure effect is

我認為，單純曝光 效應的另一個意涵是，

in the beginning,

在一開始，單純曝光尚未發揮效果。

mere exposure hadn't set in.

So it's going to be awkward, it's going to be weary.

所以會很尷尬、會很煩， 你會覺得很不舒服。

You're going to feel uncomfortable, right?

也許有點難信任人。

Maybe a little distrusting.

那並不是你應該停止出席的徵兆。

That's not a sign that you need to stop showing up.

That's a sign you need to keep showing up because when you continue to show up,

那是你應該持續出席的徵兆， 因為如果你持續出席，

他們會更喜歡你，

they're going to like you more, you're going to like them more, right?

你會更喜歡他們。

So I joined that Spanish class, that was repeated over time.

所以我參與了西班牙語課， 過一段時間就有一堂課要上，

Every day in Spanish class, I would ask people to go out to lunch with me.

每天在西班牙語課上，我會 邀別人和我一起去吃午餐，

We'd go out to lunch together,

我們會一起去吃午餐，

then we went to Lucha Libre together.

接著我們一起去看墨西哥摔角。

You know, of course, I was only there for 10 days,

當然因為我只在那裡待十天， 我和大家只能交往到這麼深。

so I can only go so deep with folks.

But in general, when you join this event that's repeated over time,

但，一般來說，當你加入 一段時間就要做一次的活動，

你會想要和那個團體中的 某個人建立獨有性。

you want to start generating exclusivity with someone in that group.

Exclusivity means you develop memories

獨有性的意思是說你會發展出回憶，

你會和團體中的一個人發展出 一些和其他人不會有的經歷。

and you develop experiences with one person in the group

that you don't have with other people.

所以，在團體中挑個你很喜歡的人，

So pick whoever in the group that you really liked and ask them,

問這個人：「你是否願意 去喝杯咖啡、喝杯茶，

"Oh, would you be open to like, getting coffee, getting tea

like, before or after our next group?"

下次團體活動之前或之後？」

Like, "I love to hang out"

說：「我很樂意出去閒晃。」

and those are like, the budding stems of friendship.

友誼就是這樣萌芽出來的。

And luckily, if you're in this group, right,

幸運的是，如果你在團體裡，

you don't have to put in as much effort,

你不用投入那麼多心力， 你們去喝了茶，

you had your tea,

and now you're going to just continue to see them over time,

接下來，隨時間你會 持續和他們見面，

你就已經讓友誼 和連結的輪子轉動起來了。

and you have the wheel start moving for friendship and connection.

主持人：TED 會員 西莉雅好奇想了解的是

WPR: So TED member Celia actually is curious about virtual friendships

虛擬友誼以及它在這當中 所扮演的角色，

and sort of how all of this plays into it,

特別是你先前提到關於疫情的幾點。

especially to some of the points you were making earlier

about the pandemic.

相對於在真實生活中見面， 對於只在社群媒體上見面的人

You know, for people who have met on social media only

as opposed to in real life, they ask,

他們問：「有可能有很強的

"Is it possible to have a strong virtual friendship?

虛擬友誼嗎？面對面連結或在 真實生活中相聚有多重要？」

How important is in-person connection or getting together in real life?"

講者：在某些層面上， 這是個很微妙的問題。

MF: Yeah, so this is such a nuanced question in some ways, right?

Because it's such a "both/and."

因為它是個「既／又」的問題。

We know from the research

我們從研究知道， 親身的實體連結通常會

that in-person connections tend to be stronger than virtual connections, right?

比虛擬連結來得強。

But I think that that research,

但我認為那些研究

it doesn't account for certain communities like people with disabilities,

並沒有考量到某些族群，如：

身障人士、有嚴重社交恐懼的人，

people with severe social anxiety,

even older people that aren't as mobile, who tend to find connections online.

行動力沒那麼好的長者，這些 傾向會在線上尋找連結的人。

And even though, you know,

雖然說，

the online connections tend to not be as deep as in person,

線上連結通常沒有親身連結來得深，

they can get deep

但仍有可能深化，

if you're practicing the same skills

如果你能把實體生活中用的 那些技巧拿到線上來用，

that you can practice in offline connection

to establish deeper relationships.

來建立更深的關係。

So, for example, like, the research finds

所以，舉例來說，比如，

研究發現，

that if you're just passively scrolling on social media, doomscrolling,

如果你只是背動地 一直滑手機看社群媒體，

不斷看負面消息，會讓你更寂寞，

it makes you more lonely

and negatively impacts your mental health and well-being.

對你的心理健康和幸福 會有負面影響。

But if you are engaging actively on social media,

但如果你在社群媒體上主動投入，

I'm posting,

我會貼文，我會在 你的分享下面留言，

I'm commenting on something that you shared,

I'm saying congratulations to you,

我會祝賀你，

that's actually linked to less loneliness

那就比較不會連結到寂寞，

and is something that actually makes us feel more satisfied in our relationships.

且實際上會讓我們 在我們的關係中感到更滿足。

所以，如果我們想要 有很深的虛擬連結，

So if we want to have deep virtual connections, it's certainly possible.

絕對有可能。

But we have to bring those same principles that we use in offline connections

但我們得運用我們在實體 生活中用的那些原則

to create more intimacy,

來創造更多親密感，比如

things like being vulnerable with someone,

在某人面前表現脆弱、

對人大方，

being generous with them

or showing affection towards them.

或展現對他們的感情。

That also works online.

那在線上也行得通。

They feel like they like one another more.

他們會覺得更喜歡彼此。

But when you're vulnerable with someone who's avoidantly attached,

但，當你對逃避型 依附的人表現脆弱時，

就不見得會如此。

that doesn't necessarily happen.

The avoidantly attached person doesn't like you more

逃避型依附的人不會因為 你脆弱就比較喜歡你，

because you're vulnerable,

因為他們自己也有 和脆弱有關的傷痛。

because they have their own wounds around vulnerability, right?

他們學到的是脆弱並非 好事：「我不應該脆弱。」

They've learned that it's not good to be vulnerable,

是他們的內隱的訊息抑制了 他們去連結的能力。

"I shouldn't be vulnerable."

Like, that's the implicit message that they have

that really inhibits their ability to connect.

所以，我認為這背後的意涵是

So the implications of this, I think,

is that if you're vulnerable and it doesn't go well

如果你展現脆弱而狀況並不順利，

and it wasn't from a place of fear,

且不是源自於恐懼，

remember that it's not always your fault.

切記，那不見得是你的錯。

That other people have their own issues that they're dealing with

其他人也有自己的問題要處理，

那可能會讓他們對你的脆弱 產生負面的反應。

which may lead them to respond to your vulnerability negatively.

And that doesn't mean that you did anything wrong.

那不表示你做錯事了。

I mean, I think if you continue to try to be vulnerable with this person

我認為如果你持續試著 向這個人展現脆弱，而這個人

who's shown you that they can't handle it,

讓你看到他無法消化，

那你就應該轉變方向。

then I think you should try to pivot, right?

But just because someone responded dismissively to your vulnerability,

但如果只因為某人對你的脆弱 回應是不屑一顧，

it might mean that they have their own issues to work out.

那可能表示他們有 自己的問題要處理。

WPR: I think, in sort of thinking about how to make friendships work well

主持人：關於要如何 讓友誼運作得很好，

or to be really good at this process of doing this, you know,

或者擅長這個交朋友的過程，

there's a popular excerpt from your book

在你的書中有一段摘錄，

that you shared in "The Atlantic"

你在《大西洋》雜誌中談到 超級朋友時有分享它。

where you talked about the concept of super friends.

So what makes someone a super friend,

成為超級朋友的條件是什麼？

and how can we all strive to be super friends?

我們如何能努力成為超級朋友？

MF: Yeah, secure friends, aka super friends.

講者：是的，安全的朋友， 也就是超級朋友，

These people are secure with themselves,

這些人自己本身很有安全感，

which means that they don't have to try to use other people

意思就是說，

他們不需要把他人當作工具 來利用以滿足他們的自我感，

as a tool to fulfill their sense of self

or to help them escape threatening emotions or feelings.

或協助他們逃離 有威脅性的情緒或感覺。

So they're able to really humanize other people fully.

所以他們能夠完全 將別人當人來看待，

And the research on securely attached people find,

關於安全感型依附者的研究發現，

and again, these are the people

同樣的，這些人過去有健康的關係，

that have a history of healthy relationships,

但也有掙得的安全感，意思就是，

but there’s also earned-secure,

which means you may not have had a history of healthy relationships,

你可能過去沒有健康的關係， 但你對自己下了功夫，

but you've done the work on yourself to develop a sense of security, right?

發展出了安全感。

Remember, this isn't --

切記，這不是——沒有人會因為 自己的依附類型而注定沒救。

nobody's doomed by their attachment style.

But what qualities do we see in them?

但我們在他們身上看到什麼特質？ 他們比較有可能展開一段友誼。

They're more likely to initiate friendships.

They're more likely to maintain friendships.

他們比較有可能維持友誼。 他們比較不會讓友誼消失。

They're less likely to dissolve friendships.

They're more generous towards other people

他們對其他人比較大方，

because, again, they fully humanize other people.

因為，他們完全把其他人當人來看，

Insecurely attached people,

不安全型依附的人， 有時看待他人的方式

they sometimes perceive other people

through the lens of their own wounds, right?

是透過他們自己的傷口來看。

So anxiously attached people, it's like,

所以焦慮型依附的人 會像這樣：你得向我證明

you need to prove to me that you value me and you love me

你重視我且你愛我， 因為我好怕你會拋棄我，

because I'm so afraid that you're going to abandon me,

接著我就能試著控制你， 讓你去做一些事，

and then I can try to control you and make you do things

來展現你真的愛我。

to show me that you really, really love me, right?

他們沒有完全把對方當人來看，

And so they're not fully humanizing another person

因為他們幾乎把對方視為 滿足他們自我感的工具。

because they're almost seeing that person as a tool

to fulfill their sense of self.

逃避型依附的人 只覺得大家都要傷害他們，

Avoidantly attached people,

they just think everybody's out to harm them

且大家都不可信。

and that everybody's untrustworthy.

他們幾乎把其他人都視為威脅，

So they almost see other people as threats,

所以他們不會完全把他人 當人看待，看見他們的美好，

so they don't fully humanize people for their beauty

以及和他人連結能帶給你的資源。

and the resources that connecting with another person can bring you.

But these securely attached people,

但安全型依附者通常 都假設別人會喜歡他們。

they tend to assume other people like them.

我談過所謂的

I talked about something called pronoia, which is the opposite of paranoia.

反向偏執妄想，即偏執妄想的相反。

It's the idea that, you know,

它的概念是，

the universe is commiserating for your success and for your well-being

全人類都會同情 你的成功和你的幸福，

and that you can trust people.

你可以信任人。 他們能自在表現脆弱，

They're comfortable with vulnerability,

they're more empathic, they're comfortable sharing their needs,

他們比較有同理心，

他們能自在分享自己的需求，

but also fulfilling the needs of other people.

也能滿足他人的需求，他們 對他人的需求比較有反應。

They're more responsive to the needs of other people.

When they engage in conflict,

當他們捲入衝突，

重點就在採用哪個視角。

it’s all about perspective-taking.

They're not like, "You do this, otherwise I'm going to be pissed off."

他們不會說：「你要這樣做，

要不然我就會發火。」

They're like, "These are my needs. What are your needs?

他們會說：「這些是 我的需求，你的呢？

讓我們來找出合作的方式， 看看什麼對雙方都行得通。

Let's figure out a way to collaborate

and figure out something that will work for both of us.

他們通常是挺療癒的朋友。

So they tend to be quite healing friends.

They tend to be --

他們通常是——我說過迴避型是

I talked about avoidant being low effort, low reward.

低度努力、低度獎勵。

Anxious is high effort, low reward.

焦慮型是高度努力，低度獎勵。

Secure is high effort, high reward when it comes to friendship.

安全型是高度努力，高度獎勵， 這些指的是友誼方面。

WPR: And then what about friendships

主持人：那麼，不見得是 在價值觀上有落差的友誼呢？

where there's not necessarily a difference in values,

也許問題是距離，不論是 因為你的人生有某種改變

but maybe a distance,

whether that's a physical distance has been created

or some sort of emotional distance

而創造出來的實體距離 或某種情緒距離。

because your life has changed in some way?

How do you suggest people go about maintaining

你會建議大家如何去維持 和培養這類關係？

and nurturing those types of relationships?

MF: So there's research on long-distance friends

講者：關於長距離朋友的研究

that finds that we are helped

會發現有助益的情況是

when we perceive our friendships as flexible, not fragile.

當我們能把友誼視為

有彈性的，不是脆弱的。

So when we perceive that,

當我們會這麼想時：

"Oh, I haven't talked to this person in a few months,

「喔，我有幾個月 沒和這個人說話了，

I'm going to assume that friendship is asleep, not that it's dead,

我會假設那段友誼 是沉睡了，不是死了。

那麼，任何時候我都可以 召回這段友誼。」

so that I can reconvene this friendship at any time."

Right?

對吧，所以那就是能夠承認 我們的友誼會有潮起潮落。

So it's being able to recognize that our friendships ebb and flow.

And when we're at an ebb, that doesn't mean,

處在低潮時，並不表示：

"OK, I'm never going to contact this person again,

「我永遠不會再聯絡這個人， 因為這段友誼正式終結。」

because the friendship is officially over."

我們假設這段低潮是正常的 過程，會再通往潮起。

We assume that this ebb is part of the normal process to flow again.

So that facilitates us being able to re-engage in the friendship

那就會促使我們能夠 在任何時候重新投入友誼中。

at any time.

所以，基本上，這一切都會回到，

So basically, this all goes back to, I really think, this tip, right?

我真心認為這個祕訣

It's such an all encompassing tip, right?

是個無所不包的祕訣。

Because what I'm basically telling you is to assume people like you, right?

基本上，我在告訴各位的 就是要假設別人喜歡你。

Like, if you don't talk to your friend awhile,

比如，你有一陣子沒和朋友說話， 要假設他們仍然想要與你做朋友。

assume that they're still interested in being friends with you.

Again, this isn't about, you know, being delusional.

同樣的，重點並不是在妄想。

If someone's clearly indicating

如果有人明確指出他們沒興趣 和你交朋友，就繼續往前走。

that they're not interested in a friendship with you, then move on.

But if it's ambiguous and you're like, "I'm not really sure,

但如果很模糊，且你心想： 「我不確定，我們有陣子沒聊，

we haven't talked for a while, but they haven't necessarily rejected me

但他們也未必會拒絕我，或當我 聯絡他們時他們仍然會回應。」

or they still are responsive when I reach out to them,"

面對模糊就採用這個假設， 因為同樣的，

you want to make that your running assumption

in response to ambiguity,

because again,

那樣的假設真的能促進持續的連結。

having that assumption really facilitates continued connection.

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