How to foster true diversity and inclusion at work (and in your community) | Rosalind G. Brewer

翻译人员: C Cheng 校对人员: Yolanda Zhang

Whitney Pennington Rodgers: Hi, Roz Brewer.

惠特尼 · 彭宁顿 · 罗杰斯： 嗨，罗兹·布鲁尔。

非常感谢你参与今天的谈话。

Thanks so much for being with us today.

罗莎琳德·布鲁尔： 感谢你们邀请我。

Rosalind Brewer: Thank you for having me.

惠特妮： 我们可以直接进入话题。

WPR: We can just dive right in.

我们现在进入了 2020 年的 最后一个季度，

We're right now in the last quarter of 2020,

and I think that a lot of people would agree that we're in the midst

我认为许多人都会同意， 我们正身处于

of what's probably one of the largest reckonings around racial equity

一个围绕种族平等 而展开的考量之中，

that we've had in this country in decades.

它也许是这个国家几十年来 最大的考量之一。

And it's something that you've been such a vocal advocate for,

而这正是你一直在大力倡导的——

both through your role at Starbucks

不仅体现在 你在星巴克的职务，

and throughout your career of diversity and inclusion in the workplace.

也体现在你 多元并蓄的职业生涯。

And so I'm curious just to hear from you to start off the conversation,

所以在对话开始之前， 我想先听听你的想法，

what this moment means for DEI efforts,

当下这个时刻对于实现 “多元、平等、包容”的行动意味着什么，

not just in corporate America but in business in general.

不仅仅针对美国的公司， 也包括整个商业界。

RB: You are right

罗莎琳德：不错。

that this has made many of us that are in the corporate setting and beyond

这让我们当中很多在企业 以及其它环境中工作的人

to rethink the position on diversity and inclusion in the workplace.

开始重新思考多元化与包容性 在工作场所中所处的位置。

You know, let me start the conversation about where are we actually

首先，我想来谈谈

在企业环境的多元化和包容性上， 我们的现状如何。

in diversity and inclusion in the corporate setting,

and I will tell you that this is actually putting a spotlight on the weaknesses

我想说，这就等于 是聚焦在一些薄弱环节上，

and maybe the lack of forethought

或许是缺少

我们本应始终持有的， 对这一问题的前瞻性和严肃关注。

and intensity that we should always have maintained on this subject all along.

One of the things that I think it's been highlighting for most of us

对我们大多数人而言， 需要意识到的一个关键就是，

is that our biggest opportunity is inclusion.

包容性是我们最大的机遇。

Because, you know, I have heard the stories so many times

因为我己经多次听到人们说，

about how there's no Black talent out there,

我们如何缺乏黑人人才，

no Latinx talent for these particular roles.

如何缺乏满足某些 特定职位需求的拉丁裔人才。

The talent is out there.

人才是有的，

I will tell you that it's underdeveloped,

但是没有得到充分的发展，

because I think we have spent more time trying to reach numbers

因为，我认为我们把更多的时间 花在了如何达到某个指标，

than we have changing our environment

而不是改变我们的环境，

where people feel safe,

以使人们感到安全，

where they feel they can come to work and be their whole self,

感到他们可以来这里工作， 同时充分保持自我；

give it everything they've got,

贡献他们的全部力量，

be their natural self

保持自己的本性。

and be respected for it and applauded for it,

同时能够受到尊重，获得掌声；

and for people to recognize and appreciate their differences

人们能够认可 并欣赏他们的差异，

and understand that they're differences,

理解他们的不同之处；

and if they're included in the conversations,

如果让他们融入到对话中来，

that they're just a better resource for the companies.

他们将成为公司更优秀的资源。

So I think there's so much opportunity in the inclusion space,

所以我认为，在包容性的空间里 存在着非常多的机会，

because we focus too much on meeting metrics.

因为我们太专注于达成指标了。

WPR: And, you know, I think earlier this year

惠特妮： 今年早些时候

when the protests began right after the death of George Floyd,

就在乔治·弗洛伊德死后不久， 当抗议开始的时候，

we saw lots of organizations put out these statements of solidarity,

我们看到许多组织 发表了声明以示声援，

these commitments to do more to be inclusive

承诺要在包容性上做出更多努力，

both in their workspace

不仅在他们的工作场所，

and for their customers and people who support their work.

也针对他们的顾客和协助人员。

But then you also hear --

但是，你也会听到——

I've heard a lot of business leaders say things like, "You know,

我听到了很多商业领袖说，比如：

we want to do something but don't really know where to start."

“我们想要做些什么， 但是不知道该从何开始。”

And so I'm curious to hear from you just sort of what do you think

所以，我想听一下你的想法：

are ways that you actually can make a real difference

当考虑到多元化和包容性的时候，

when it comes to thinking about diversity and inclusion

哪些方法能让你真正有所作为，

and avoid sort of this performative justice?

并避免这种仅在实施层面上 做出的公正评判？

RB: Yes.

罗莎琳德：好的。

So there's a few things that I think about in this space.

关于这个话题， 我会考虑几件事。

First of all, when you think about an inclusive environment,

首先，当你考虑一个 包容性的环境时，

you think about: Am I being heard?

你会考虑：我的声音有没有被听到？

And most people with differences,

每个人都是不同的，

they want to know that you are heard and that you are seen.

他们想知道你会 被听到，被注意到。

And I really applaud the companies who have been spending time

我真心要为那些公司鼓掌， 他们花了很多时间

just putting themselves on a learning journey,

来学习，

you know, holding listening sessions,

举办意见听取会，

trying to make sure that we've got different viewpoints

试图确保在做出重大决定时，

when big decisions are made.

我们已经拥有了不同的视角。

You know, there are some companies who are engaging their partner networks

有一些公司正在 以前所未有的方式

与他们的合作网络保持接触。

in ways that they've never done before.

I think those are some early success factors

我认为这是 一些初步的成功因素，

that could lead us to different kinds of conversations.

它们可以将我们带到 不同类型的对话中。

And I've been listening to a lot of my peers in different industries,

我一直在倾听不同产业中 许多同辈们的声音，

and they're having their own personal aha moments,

他们有自己的顿悟时刻，

and they're actually checking themselves at the front door, saying,

他们其实是在自我反省：

"I never thought," "I never knew,"

“我从来没想过”， “我从来不知道”，

"I didn't know what I was doing when I said X, or when I did this." Right?

“当我说某些话，或者这样做的时候， 我并不知道我在做什么。”

And so I think it starts with some very simple things.

所以，我认为应该从 一些简单的事情入手。

I'd say that there are a lot of steps to take

我说过，要在采取许多步骤之后，

before training and development, that's for sure.

才能开始培训提高， 这是肯定的。

So those that are jumping quickly into training and development,

所以，对那些迅速跳到 培训提高这一步的人，

I'd say put a pause on it and just get back to grassroots

我要说，停下脚步，回到基层，

and hold listening sessions and then decide,

先召开意见听取会，然后再决定

what do you want to do?

你想做什么。

And then help those people of diverse backgrounds

然后去帮助那些 具有不同背景的人

engage in those conversations about how they want to see change happen.

参与到对话中，讨论 他们希望看到怎样的改变。

They're the best resource for a lot of this

对于许多此类讨论来说，

and a lot of these discussions.

他们是最佳资源。

I mean, I learned so much.

我从中学到了很多东西。

I have breakfast sessions with the baristas and partners

我会经常在星巴克 与服务生和合作伙伴

at Starbucks regularly.

进行早餐会。

I just had one yesterday, and when my screen popped up,

我昨天刚刚开过一次。 当我的屏幕弹出一个窗口——

I had nine diverse randomly selected partners.

我有九个随机挑选的， 背景多元的搭档。

We call our employees "partners."

我们把雇员称为“搭档”。

And it was such a rich conversation,

那是一次非常丰富多彩的对话。

and they began to network while I'm talking to them, right,

在我与他们谈话时， 他们开始建立联系，

they were learning from each other.

相互学习。

And this wasn't a diversity conversation.

这并不是一个 关于多元化的对话。

We were actually kicking off our new financial year at Starbucks,

我们其实正在开启 星巴克的新财年，

and so this was actually a business conversation

所以，这其实是一次商业谈话,

and a touch-base to see how you're doing

也是为了保持联络，

看一看当我们远程工作时， 你的近况如何。

while we're working remotely.

And, you know, it starts there with building relationships

它的起点是建立联系，

and learning people for who they are and engaging them and saying,

了解他们是谁，与他们 保持接触，并对他们说：

"I see you, I hear you."

“我注意到了你， 听到了你的声音。”

That goes such a long way that I think if we do more of that,

这会非常有帮助，我甚至认为， 如果我们继续朝着这个方向推进，

I even think the engagement and performance

参与和业绩

just goes through the roof.

将会快速提升。

WPR: And so what I hear you saying, then, is that it's less about

惠特妮： 那么你的意思是，

它关系到的并不主要是短期的， “我该如何应对当前这一时刻？”

this short-term "how can I respond to this moment right now?"

and it's more about long-term engagement with people

而更多的是关于长期的 与他人的密切联系，

and making this part of the fabric of how you do your work.

以及使其成为 工作架构中的一部分。

And so I'm curious also to hear a little bit about,

所以，我还想听一听

just, I guess if there is a timeline,

这里是否有 一个明确的时间线呢？

when people think about how quickly they should be responding to protests

比如，当人们考虑应该 以多快的速度对抗议活动，

and to what's happening in this cultural moment.

对发生在这个 文化危机时刻的事情做出响应。

What should we actually be looking at

当我们见到这些变化 被落实并产生效果时，

as far as when we see this change actually materialize and take effect?

我们应该期待些什么呢？

RB: Yes. So I think there are some short-term things.

罗莎琳德：我认为 这里有些事是短期的。

There are some really key partnerships in the communities around our localities

在我们所在地的社区中 有一些非常关键的合作伙伴，

that are really important to also engage

如果他们也参与到某些 意见听取及学习座谈会中，

in some of the listening and learning sessions as well.

那也将是非常重要的。

I learn tons from organizations like the Legal Defense Fund,

我从法律辩护基金会这样的 组织那里学到了很多东西。

from the NAACP,

还有全国有色人种协进会，

and engaging those partnerships that we've had over the years,

我们与这些年来的 合作伙伴保持着密切联系，

but changing the discussion of the conversation

但是在商谈讨论如何合作而时，

about how do we partner together.

我们做了一些改变。

Because one of the things that I fear for being a retailer

因为，让我担忧的一件事—— 作为一个零售商，

like Starbucks and many other companies

比如星巴克及许多其它公司——

is that I want my partners to feel not only safe, comfortable,

那就是，我希望我的搭档 不仅在公司里能感到安全舒适，

heard and seen in the company,

他们的声音被人听到，受人注目，

I want them to have that same experience in the community.

我还希望他们在社区里 也有同样的经历。

And so that's when it comes full circle.

这就又转回到了原地。

I really want diverse BIPOC employees

我真心希望非裔美国人、原住民、 有色人种这些多元化的雇员们

to feel like, you know, "I make a difference."

能够觉得：“我可以改善现状。”

First of all, I vote every year.

首先，我每年都会投票。

I'm engaged in my community.

我参与到了我的社区活动之中。

And then I'm engaged in work.

我参与到了我的工作之中。

So I have value.

我是有价值的。

And so I think there are some key partnerships

所以，我认为有一些 关键性的伙伴关系

that should happen right now

应该立即建立，

so that we can make sure that our employees feel like

这样，我们就可以确保 我们的雇员们感到

they have a full way to engage in this change that's underfoot right now.

他们可以充分参与到 正在发生的变化之中。

WPR: And then I wonder, conversely,

惠特妮： 反过来，我想知道，

what sort of pitfalls have you seen business leaders fall into

在你看来，商业领袖们 犯了哪些错误，

that are actually just not effective

他们的决策既无效，

and are not supportive of efforts

也不支持

to be more inclusive and to diversify?

为增强包容性和多元化 而做的努力？

What are some of the things that haven't worked?

有哪些事情被证明 是无效的呢？

RB: Yeah, you know, I worry about the race for numbers, to meet numbers,

罗莎琳德：我担心的是，为了达到 一个目标而在数字上进行的竞争，

because what you will find, I've found many times in my career,

因为，如同我在职业生涯中 多次发现的那样，你会看到

is that some of our best leaders have good intentions,

一些最出色的领导者们 有着好的意向，

but they don't understand.

但是对一些事情并不了解。

They don't understand the partner sitting next to them

他们不了解那个坐在他们旁边，

that looks different from them.

看上去与他们不同的搭档。

And so I worry about when we race to numbers,

所以，当我们在数字上 竞争时，我会为此担心。

because, you know what?

因为，你知道吗？

The kind of country we live in, the world we live in,

在我们生活的国家里， 在我们生活的世界上，

we all know how to make numbers work.

我们都知道 如何让数字起作用。

What we don't know how to do is to build strong relationships

我们不知道的是，

如何建立持久的， 有价值的牢固关系。

that are lasting, that are valued.

And I think that's where we need to start,

我认为这是我们需要 开始着手的地方：

is relationship-building and key partnerships.

关系建设，以及 关键性的合作伙伴。

So I worry about the numbers base.

所以, 我担心的是底数。

WPR: And so, of course, I think we all remember a few years back,

惠特妮：当然， 我想我们都记得几年前，

Starbucks had a very public issue.

星巴克遇到了一次公众事件，

You were embroiled in that incident in Philadelphia

你们卷入了费城的

around racial discrimination

一起种族歧视案件。

that led to Starbucks taking a step back and thinking about inclusion

它让星巴克退后了一步， 开始思考关于包容性、

and implicit bias and racial sensitivity.

隐性偏见和种族敏感性的问题。

So how did that experience help prepare you for this year,

那段经历如何 帮助你们为今年做好了准备，

both as an individual business leader and then also as an organization?

无论是就个体商业领导者， 还是就组织而言？

How did it help you approach what we've been experiencing

它如何帮助你们应对

in this country in the past few months?

过去的几个月，我们 在这个国家里所经历的一切？

RB: So, that was a real example of leadership

罗莎琳德：那是一个 关于领导力的真实案例,

and, actually, where Starbucks had failed in selecting the right leadership

其实也是星巴克在为 该门店选择领导层上

for that store.

失败的地方。

And to give you an example,

举个例子，

the person that was running that store

运营那个门店的人

was a very young, up-and-coming leader for the company,

是一个非常年轻，在公司里 很有前途的领导者。

and to put her in a store in 18th and Spruce in Philadelphia

把她派到位于费城 第 18 街和云杉路的门店，

was an opportunity for all of us.

对于我们所有人 都曾是一个机会。

So in retrospect, one of the reasons why we did the antibias training

所以，回想起来，我们进行 反偏见培训的原因之一

was to make sure that we began those conversations.

就是要确保这些对话得以展开。

And when I talk about not just training --

当我谈到不仅仅是培训时——

that training was very unique because it was self-engaged.

这个培训非常特别， 因为它的核心是自我参与，

They weren't being taught by an instructor.

而不是由老师传授。

They had to have conversations with their peer baristas

他们必须与咖啡厅的同行们

around diversity and inclusion amongst themselves.

就多元化和包容性， 在他们当中展开对话。

So it wasn't moderated by any leader in the company.

所以，它并不受 公司领导人员的审核。

It was self-instructive.

更多的是自我教育。

And the conversations that were created

一旦我们有了那样的关系建设，

once we had that kind of relationship-building --

就会创造出那样的对话。

you know, we had some of our baristas asking us,

我们有一些 咖啡店的店员会问：

"Can I take this home and talk to my father,

“我可以把这套机制带回家， 与我的父亲谈谈吗？

who never let me take the Black girl to the prom?"

他从来不让我 带黑人姑娘去舞会。”

You know, we started what we felt like a movement and a discussion

我们感觉我们所开启的 像是一场运动或讨论，

that we have been able to really use from that point on

我们可以真正地用它来

in terms of the way we want to escalate the conversations

升级对话

and make change happen at Starbucks,

以及在星巴克进行革新。

and not only at Starbucks but in our communities,

不仅仅是在星巴克， 也在我们的社区里，

because there were quite a few organizations that we reached out to

因为有不少我们接触到的，

that we're still engaged with today

至今仍保持着密切联系的组织，

that are helping us build community leadership as well.

帮助我们建立了社区领导层。

WPR: And is that the goal?

惠特妮： 这是你们的目的吗？

I mean, you mentioning an employee who wanted to take their learnings home.

我是指，你提到了一位想把 学到的东西带回家的雇员。

Is the goal in thinking about how you approach these issues as an organization

作为一个组织，在考虑该如何

为你的雇员和合作伙伴 处理这些问题时，

for your employees and your partners

to see how they can move this beyond just their work life?

你们的目标是要看到他们 如何将此延申到工作之外吗？

RB: Sure. You know, a lot of this starts at home.

罗莎琳德：当然。 许多这类对话都是在家里展开的，

It starts with what happens at your dinner table. Right?

比如晚餐时间。

And so we can correct what happens and we're responsible for what happens

所以，如果你来星巴克上班的话， 我们可以对发生的事情进行纠正，

when you come to work at Starbucks,

并对其负起责任。

but we also realize that we can only get them ever so far,

但是，我们也认识到 我们最多也只能做到这一步。

but if you're at the table having some conversations

但是，如果你在饭桌上的谈话

that are counter to what you're learning in the workplace,

与你在工作场所 学到的东西相悖的话，

you can't help but slow down your growth and your change.

你就不得不放慢 你的成长与变化。

And so a lot of the work that we do around diversity and inclusion

所以，我们围绕多元化和 包容性开展的许多工作

is open-sourced.

都是开源的。

So when we created the materials for the work

所以，当我们为这项工作 准备了培训材料，

when we had the closing of our stores on May 28th,

在 5 月 28 号关店的时候，

we had given that to so many other companies for them to use,

我们把材料交给了 许多其它公司使用。

and even we're doing some work right now around Courageous Conversations.

我们现在正在围绕 “无畏交谈”开展工作。

And in this remote world,

在这个远程世界里，

we're allowing our partners to bring their families onto the camera

我们允许我们的搭档把 他们的家人带到摄像头前，

or listen in the room

或者，在房间里旁听

as we have courageous conversations on diversity.

我们就多元化而 进行的“无畏交谈”。

So if Starbucks has a keynote speaker on a certain diversity topic,

如果星巴克在某个多元话题上 有一个主要发言人的话，

we invite the family in.

我们会邀请家属参加。

And it's been really, it's been great.

这是一段非常棒的经历。

A lot of our senior executives have said,

许多高级管理人员说过，

"This is starting new conversations with my teens at home,"

“这让我在家里与我那 青春期的孩子开始了新的对话。”

who are either getting bullied ...

不然他们就会被欺负......

These are changing the conversations about why we question

这些正在改变着我们的对话； 它关系到我们为什么

some of the actions that we had around our house.

要对某些家庭活动进行质疑。

And so we need to understand that to embrace this issue,

所以，我们需要了解， 如果要直面这个问题，

it is not as small as numbers,

不能狭隘地只盯着数字，

it's not as small as just the workplace.

也不能仅限于工作场所。

It is very comprehensive.

它的适用范围是非常宽泛的。

So we're trying to do something different here

所以，我们在这里尝试着 做一些不同的事情，

to change the conversations and then actually grow inclusion

以改变这些对话， 并使包容性能够

in a very, very grassroots way

真正地以基层化的方式

at Starbucks.

在星巴克得以发展。

WPR: And, of course, I would imagine as a Black woman and a business leader

惠特妮：我可以想象， 作为一位黑人女性和商业领导者，

that these issues hit really close to home for you.

这些问题真切地 触碰到了你的痛点。

And I'm curious just with your interactions

我很好奇地想了解，你与同事，

with colleagues and counterparts at other organizations

与其它组织里的同僚之间的互动。

that perhaps there isn't that same level of investment

也许，在其它组织里， 并没有同水平的投入，

because it isn't something that's as important personally.

因为, 就个人而言， 它没有同样的重要性。

And I'm curious how you are able to begin those conversations

而且，我也很想知道你是如何

与同事和同僚们 开始这些对话的。

with colleagues and counterparts

who are in positions to bring about this sort of change

毕竟他们有能力 将这种变化引入到

in their own organizations

自己的组织

or within Starbucks.

或者星巴克的。

How do you get them invested,

你是怎么使他们 投入这项工作中的？

and how do you, frankly, get them to care about this?

或者直白一点，你是如何 让他们认真对待这件事的？

RB: Yeah, that's a very good question.

罗莎琳德： 这是一个非常好的问题。

So, I have two children.

我有两个孩子。

I have a daughter who is 17 and a son who is 25.

女儿 17 岁，儿子 25 岁。

And quite honestly, when that situation happened

坦率地说， 当 2018 年

in our Starbucks stores back in 2018,

我们的一个门店发生这件事时，

my son was the same exact age as Donte and Rashon

我儿子正好与堂特和瑞尚 （星巴克种族歧视事件当事人）同龄，

and looks a lot like them, by the way,

而且这两个孩子 看起来也很像他们。

and would have been sitting in the Starbucks

他也可能会坐在星巴克里，

dressed the same way they were.

穿戴得和他们一样。

So that incident alone was deeply personal to me,

所以，那次事件本身 对我来说非常私人化,

actually made me grab my chest, right?

让我感到非常揪心和后怕。

Because I knew at any given moment

因为我知道在任何时刻，

my husband or my son could get pulled over,

我的丈夫，或者我的儿子 也可能会被质询，

and I'd get that call in the middle of the night.

而我可能在半夜接到那个电话。

So it's deeply personal for me,

所以，它对我来说非常私人化。

and what I try to do is I share stories,

我试图做的是分享这些故事。

and I talk very openly about my family and what we do on the weekends

我非常公开地谈到我的家庭， 以及我们在周末做的事情，

and our holiday traditions and all of those things.

还有我们的假日传统 和所有这些事情。

And I have no issue with someone leaning over to me,

我不介意有人凑近我，

maybe one of my white counterparts,

也许是我的一位白人同僚，

saying, "I don't understand that. What are they talking about?"

对我说：“我对那个完全不理解。 他们在说些什么？“

when they hear something that's a little bit different than their culture.

此时他们听到了一些与 他们的文化稍许不同的事物。

And I'm wide open to explain and have those conversations,

我会坦诚地加以解释并展开对话，

because I feel like I really want to be a conduit for that.

因为我觉得我真的 很想成为它的一条渠道。

I always tell everyone, no question's too small or too big.

我常常对每个人讲， 没有什么问题是过小或者过大。

Even with everything that's going on right now

尽管当前

in our environment around social unrest,

我们的环境中发生了社会动荡

I've gotten tons of calls from my white peers at different companies

我仍然接到了很多来自 其它公司的白人同辈的电话，

saying, "Roz, what do you think? What are you hearing?

“罗兹，你是怎么想的？ 你听到了什么？

给我解释一下。”

Help me out here."

我会放下一切事情，

I'll drop everything,

because if I can help, and I'll tell the story,

因为，如果我能帮上忙的话， 我会讲述这个故事。

and I think most people know if they've known me over the years.

而且大部分 了解我的人都会知道，

我非常坦率，直言不讳。

I'm pretty frank and outspoken.

And I'll also tell them when they've really messed up

当有人把事情搞砸了的时候， 我也会直接告诉他们，

并且指导他们 接下来要怎么处理。

and what they need to do about it.

And so I think I want more Black leaders

我希望更多的黑人领导者

to feel just as confident in doing that.

在做这些事情时， 能够感到同样自信。

我不认为这里有任何风险。

I see no risk in it.

I do realize that it begins a new relationship with some people,

我确实意识到它开启了 我与一些人的新的联系。

and some people can't take the tough conversations,

有些人无法承受艰难的对话，

但是，现在的确到了 进行艰难对话的时候。

but it's time for tough conversations.

WPR: And, I mean, to that point,

惠特妮： 针对这一点，

I imagine there are probably also people who,

我想象可能有人，

because these conversations are tough and uncomfortable,

因为这些对话 既艰难又令人不快，

think maybe it's easier or better to just avoid having to do that

而认为更简单或更好的 做法是避免这么做，

and to have those conversations and discussions

避免让这些对话和讨论

to stir the pot in some ways.

加剧紧张局面。

And so what do you say to the people

那么，你会对这样的人 说些什么呢？

who think "Let's just try to lay low,"

他们认为： “让咱们试着低调一些。”

and I've heard some of this, too, in this moment, "Let the moment pass

我也听到过这样的一些说法， “就让这件事过去吧，

so that we can get back to business as usual"?

好让我们尽快回到常态。”

RB: Yeah. Well, I'd first start off by saying how disgusted I am

罗莎琳德： 首先我要说，

我对这种说法很反感，

by that statement,

because leaders lead in the moment,

因为，领导者要在此刻进行领导，

and you never know when you're going to be called upon.

而且，你永远不会知道 你何时会被召唤到。

And if this isn't a calling,

如果这个不算是召唤的话，

I don't know what is.

我不知道什么算是。

And so when I get that call and say,

所以当我受到召唤时却说

"You know, I just think I should take the back seat

“你了解，我就是认为 我应该退居次位，

and just kind of let this brew here and that calm down,"

让它在这儿酝酿一下， 再冷却下去。”

you know, we need to all -- it's an all-in moment.

你知道，我们需要全力以赴—— 这是一个破釜沉舟的时刻。

And leadership is not designated by your title.

领导力并不是 由你的头衔来派定的。

It's designated about how great you can create followership.

它关系到在创造 追随者时，你有多棒。

And having thought leadership,

想到领导力，

人们低估了这样的一个机会，

people underestimate the opportunity

to pick up the phone and call someone, and say, "How are you?

即拿起电话机，给某人打 个电话，问问：“你还好吗？

How is this affecting you? How can I help?"

这件事对你有什么影响吗？ 我该怎样帮你呢？”

That's pretty simple.

这很简单。

You might decide it's something I can't help with,

你也许很确定， 在这件事上帮不了什么忙。

but you'd better darn sure pick up the phone

但你最好还是拿起电话，

and start feeling out the environment

开始摸清楚

你的雇员、同辈和 领导所处的环境，

in your employee base, in your peers, in your leaders,

because the time is now, and so I don't give them an out.

因为现在正是时候， 所以我不会让他们推辞。

I actually try and push them over the edge,

我其实尝试过试探 他们的能力极限，

because sometimes they are just kind of stuck, like, "What do I do?"

因为有时他们会陷入困境， 比如，“我该怎么办？"

And then the other thing that I personally have to do

另一件我个人要做的事是

is to make sure that they understand

确保他们理解

that because I am at this level where I am,

因为我处在我所在的位置，

I'm not excluded from these issues, right?

我并没有从 这些问题中被排除，对吗？

我知道，当我的丈夫 跳进他的车里时，

I know that when my husband jumps in his vehicle,

I worry every time if he's out in the evening

我每每都会担心， 如果他晚上出去的话，

that he may not come back home the same way he left.

可能不会像离开时那样回来。

I feel that way for my son and for my husband.

对我的儿子，我的丈夫， 我会有这种感觉。

I still get, even when I go shopping,

即使当我购物时，

I still get the look, am I stealing,

我仍然会受到那样的注视—— 我是不是在偷窃；

watching me as I walk around the corner.

当我走到拐角处时， 有双眼睛一直会盯着我。

And I don't know what else or how else I can look or act any different,

我不知道还有什么，或者还能怎样 让我看起来或者表现得有所不同，

so I just act like myself.

所以，我索性就做我自己。

I used to get dressed to go shopping.

我过去常常穿戴整齐了 才去购物。

Now I never do that.

现在，我再也不这样做了。

If I'm spending my money, my money spends everywhere,

如果我花钱的话，我的钱 可以花在任何一个地方；

and if I get that feeling that you're going to race me around the store,

如果我感觉到你 在商店里歧视我的话，

then I'm going to leave, and that's your loss.

我就离开，那将是你的损失。

But I still get that, and so I worry.

但是，我仍然会遭受歧视， 所以我会担心。

So I also try to help people understand that this is not a socioeconomic,

我也会试图帮助人们理解 这并不是一个社会经济问题；

once you've sort of "made it," you're out of the water.

一旦取得成功， 你便脱离了困境。

No.

不。

We're still, as someone with differences, visible differences, you're still at risk.

因为我们依旧有着 明显的不同之处，依旧面临风险。

WPR: And so much of this conversation also is about

惠特妮： 很多对话还关系到

who's in leadership and who's making these decisions

谁在领导，谁在做出这些决定，

and representation at high levels.

以及谁在高层进行投诉。

And I know that you've been really vocal about your own experiences

我知道你对自身的 经历一向直言不讳。

as a woman color, person of color, as a Black woman,

作为一名有色人种，一名女性 有色人种，一名黑人女性，

in these executive positions,

你身居行政执行领导的职位，

and often feeling you are the only one in some rooms,

而且经常感到，在某些情况下， 你是唯一的一位，

and sort of the isolation of that,

因而有点被孤立。

but also the challenges in making choices and getting things done

但是，必要的情况下， 你也在做出选择和完成任务时

when that's the case.

提出了挑战。

And so I'm curious also,

所以，我也想知道，

what are the opportunities that this moment presents

这一时刻为我们提供了怎样

for us to perhaps approach this differently,

以不同方式来处理 这个问题的机会？

and how can people at different organizations

不同组织里的人该如何

who are looking to bring people in to positions of leadership,

将员工引入领导职位？

how can we approach this differently so that we can begin to see

我们该如何以不同的方式 来处理这一问题，

以便我们能够见到更多的有色人员 开始出现在这些职位上？

more people of color in these roles?

RB: Sure.

罗莎琳德： 当然。

It's been my experience

我的经历是，

that I see tons of great, diverse talent coming in to companies,

我见到很多非常棒的， 多元化的人才来到公司，

and then they're stuck.

然而，此后却开始陷入了困境。

And what I see is the pipeline is very weak at a certain level,

我所见到的是，晋升渠道 在某个级别上非常有限。

and once it gets to the point of trying to decide on a succession plan

一旦到了需要决定

for who's next in line for the big jobs,

谁来继任重要工作时，

there's this great talent that's like that mid-level manager area,

会有很棒的人才 出现在中层管理领域，

then there's a big gap,

之后是一个巨大的缺口，

and then there's maybe two at the top.

然后在顶层也许会 有两个这样的人才。

And it puts a lot of pressure on those two on the top

这就给这两个在顶层的人 施加了很大的压力。

to try and go down and grab those that are just,

他们要试图在下层中找到那些

maybe been with the company for two to five years,

在公司工作了只有 大概 2 至 4 年的人，

and lift them up.

并提携他们。

So what I think about is:

所以，我考虑的是：

How do we give extraordinary experiences

我们该如何 把不寻常的经历提供给

to our youngest diverse talent

我们最年轻的， 具有多元背景的人才，

so that they can get that exposure early on

以便让他们尽早地 获得接触的机会，

and begin to develop early on just like their white peers?

尽早地开始发展， 就如他们的白人同辈一样？

And I think sometimes we celebrate too much

我认为，我们有时过早地颂扬

that they are part of the company,

他们是公司的一部分。

but what we need to celebrate is, where is their progression?

然而，我们需要颂扬的是 他们在何处取得了进步？

Where is their opportunity for growth?

他们发展成长的机会在哪里？

Who's listening to them,

谁在倾听他们的声音？

and who has their hands on them?

以及，谁在协助他们？

And one of the things that we're doing at Starbucks

在星巴克， 我们正在做的一件事是

is really having structured mentorship.

师徒关系的结构化。

But the mentorship looks a lot more like being a sponsor.

但是，这种师徒关系看起来 更像是个人资助。

And so, our executive leaders will be responsible for the development

行政执行领导们将对

我们年轻的 多元化人才的发展负责，

of our young, diverse talent

and making sure that they're getting that exposure and those opportunities.

以确保他们能够获得 接触机会和发展机遇。

And just imagine if you're a new hire in the company,

想象一下，如果你刚被公司雇用，

and someone wants to meet with you at a senior level once a month,

某个来自高层的人士 想要与你每月会面一次，

twice a year, even --

即使是，每年两次，

that's game-changing.

这也将是决定性的改变。

And so we have to reach our young talent early,

所以我们必须尽早地 接触到我们的年轻人才，

and now this pipeline has got to close.

而且，必须闭合这条渠道，

We've got to fill it up

必须将其填满，

and close this gap,

合拢沟壑，

because if not, I don't see a pathway

因为，如果不这样做的话， 我将无法想象出任何一条

for diverse executives, C-suite executives,

建设多元化的 高级管理层的途径。

in the next, I would say, three to five years,

我认为，在接下来的 3 至 5 年里，

I don't see a lot of placements happening.

我将不会见到 大量这类职位的出现。

WPR: And are you hopeful in this moment?

惠特妮： 此刻你是否充满希望？

Do you feel like we are making progress towards this?

你是否觉得 我们正在为此取得进步？

RB: It's early days.

罗莎琳德： 现在还为时尚早，

I'm hopeful.

但我对此充满希望。

I feel good about the conversations that are happening.

我对现在所进行的对话感觉很好。

I'm seeing change in people thinking more about themselves

我看到那些更多地为自己 着想的人正在改变，

when my white counterparts are questioning some of their actions.

我的白人同僚对他们的 一些行动开始产生质疑，

And so I feel like we can't let this moment leave us,

所以，我觉得我们不能让这个时刻，

以及我们从中学到的 东西离我们而去。

and what we're learning about it.

I think what I'm really optimistic about

真正让我感到乐观的是，

is that now I think more people will understand

越来越多的人将会理解

that the less diverse and less inclusive we are,

越是缺乏多元化和包容性，

it's more than a business imperative.

这就越不仅仅是商业需求。

When we combine the pandemic

当我们把它和疫情结合起来时，

and we see the inequities of a pandemic

我们看到疫情所带来的不平等

on a diverse community,

出现在了多元化的社区里。

and we talk about how that happens,

我们谈论到那是如何发生的，

how people are underrepresented in health care,

平等是怎样在医疗

underrepresented in their housing,

和住房上未得到充分体现的。

they can see that this is a groundswell moment.

他们可以看到这是 一个群情激愤的时刻。

And the more we realize that and talk about that complexity,

只有当我们对它认识得更多， 对它的复杂性谈论得更多，

then the solutions begin to happen.

解决方案才会出现。

And I think that's happening more and more,

我认为这出现得越来越频繁，

so I'm optimistic about that,

所以我对此非常乐观，

because we're looking at the ills of lack of diversity and inclusion,

因为我们正在思索因缺乏 多元化和包容性而产生的弊病，

and maybe looking at much broader solutions for it

正在考虑解决方案，

than what we have in the past.

它将比过去的方案更加宽泛。

WPR: Thank you so much, Roz. This was such a meaningful conversation.

惠特妮：非常感谢，罗兹。 这是一次非常有意义的谈话。

It was great to hear your insights.

很高兴听到你的见解。

RB: Thank you.

罗莎琳德：谢谢。