Leadership Lessons From the Prime Minister of Canada | Justin Trudeau | TED

翻译人员: Yaoxiang Yu 校对人员: suya f.

Adam Grant: I'm actually curious about this idea of putting people at ease.

亚当·格兰特：其实我 对这种让人们放心的想法很好奇。

How do you think about doing that when you show up?

当你亮相的时候你会考虑这样做吗？

Justin Trudeau: I don't, I don't think about it.

贾斯汀·特鲁多：我不知道，我没想过。

Being able to just try and get through people's preconceived notions

我猜能够尝试打破 人们先入为主的观念、期望

or expectations or nervousness

或紧张情绪，

to try and have a real conversation as quickly as possible

尝试尽快进行真正的对话...

is just something that I guess ...

是一件

I guess I learned how to try to do throughout my life.

我想我一生都在学如何去做的事。

Talking about the weather always sort of bored me,

谈论天气总是让我感到无聊，

but actually having real conversations about things that matter

但实际上，每当我遇到任何人时， 我都想做的是

was what I always wanted to do whenever I'd meet anyone.

就重要的事情进行真切的谈话。

And people would come at me with a certain amount of preconceptions

人们会带着一定程度的先入为主来找我，

because my father was prime minister

因为我父亲是总理，

and there's a known factor around me

而且我身边有一个众所周知的因素，

that getting them to a place

那就是让他们

where they could actually be comfortable in being themselves

去一个真正可以自在地生活的地方

quickly became something that I wanted to see and do

很快就成了我在所有互动中

in all my interactions.

都想看到和做的事情。

AG: Mission accomplished.

格兰特：任务完成了。

JT: There you go.

特鲁多：很好。

AG: This is something of the family business.

格兰特：这属于家族企业。

You got to see the Prime Minister job up close long before you took it.

早在你上任总理的职位 之前，你就必须仔细观察。

What surprised you the most that you didn't expect?

你没想到的最 让你惊讶的是什么？

JT: Yeah, my first 13 years of life growing up with my dad in this role

特鲁多：是的，我和爸爸一起 成长的头13年

was the international summits, was the speeches,

是国际峰会，是演讲，

was the people coming up to him in restaurants

是那些在餐馆

for the rest of his life saying,

里来找他致谢的人：

"Thank you for doing this." "Thank you for doing that."

“谢谢你这么做。” “谢谢你那么做。”

And it was always the big things.

而这始终是大事。

The little things were the things I didn't see as a kid that really matter.

这些小事是我小时候 没见过的真正重要的事情。

When I first got elected, I wasn't leader,

我第一次当选时，我不是领导人，

I wasn't even on the government side.

甚至不站在政府一边。

I was just a simple backbench MP

我只是一个普通的后座议员

discovering the ways in which being a community's representative,

探寻成为社区代表的方式，

being their voice here in Ottawa,

在渥太华发声，

being in service of people,

为百姓服务。

even if you're not in government, even if you're not in charge,

即使你不在政府，即使你没有掌权，

actually makes a difference.

实际上也会有所作为。

And discovering that

发现这一点

made this job a lot more like what I knew professionally,

使这份工作更像是我的专业知识，

which was being a teacher.

那就是当老师。

It's those little moments,

对我来说，关键是

those engagements, that explaining things,

那些片刻、那些参与、解释了事物、

empowering people that was key for me.

赋予了人们权力。

AG: So it almost sounds like there are aspects of the job

格兰特：所以听起来工作的某些方面

that are better than you expected.

比你预期的要好。

JT: As a little kid, you know, I wanted to, I guess,

特鲁多：小时候，我猜我

either be a fireman or an astronaut or a prime minister like my dad.

要么成为消防员、宇航员, 要么像我爸一样当总理。

But, you know, they were all unreal.

但是你知道，这些都是不切实际的。

And then I went through a long stretch of not wanting to go into politics

然后我经历了很长一段时间不想参政，

because I knew how different I was from my father,

因为我知道自己和父亲有多么不同。

and he was a very successful prime minister.

他是一位非常成功的总理。

And it wasn't until later that I realized that there was a path

直到后来，我才意识到作为一名老师、

through being a teacher, around process, around people,

围绕流程、围绕人、

around connection with people.

围绕人际关系有一条道路

It was very different than my father's more intellectual approach to politics.

与我父亲更聪明的政治方法截然不同。

AG: How do you deal with the fact that no matter what you do at work,

格兰特：无论你在工作中做什么，

millions of people are going to disapprove of your decisions

数百万人都会不赞成你的决定，

and probably dislike you as a person?

可能会不喜欢你这个人，你会如何应对？

JT: First of all, I mean,

特鲁多：首先，我的意思是，

the line is, no matter what you're doing, you know,

不管你在做什么，

30 percent like you, 30 percent hate you,

30％ 的人喜欢你， 30％ 的人讨厌你，

40 percent are completely indifferent to the fact that you even exist, right?

40％ 的人对你的存在 完全漠不关心，对吧？

I mean, you don't get into this job because you want to be popular

我想说，你进入这份工作不是 因为你想受人欢迎

or you want to be liked, or if you do,

或者你想被人喜欢， 或者如果你这样做，

you're in for a rude awakening

你就会被粗鲁的觉醒，

because that's not what this job is all about.

因为那不是这份工作的全部目的。

That's not what this life is all about.

这不是人生的全部目的。

This is about service.

目的是服务。

This is about feeling you can actually make a difference

这是一种感觉，你可以真正改变

that is meaningful in people's lives,

人们的生活，通过朝着国家的方向，

in the direction of the country,

和国家对全世界的影响如何，

in how your country has an impact on the world.

做出有意义的改变。

The fact that there are people who approve of what I'm doing,

有些人赞成我的所作所为，

there are people who disapprove of what I'm doing

有些人不赞成我的所作所为， 这一事实完全

is all par for the course.

是理所当然的。

And if nobody had any opinion on me, positive or negative,

而且，如果没有人对我有任何看法， 无论是正面还是负面，

it would be that I wasn't doing anything consequential.

那就是我没有做任何有意义的事情。

So you do need to have a little bit of pushback if I'm, you know,

因此如果我像现在一样

raising taxes on the wealthiest as I am right now.

提高最富有者的税收， 你确实需要有一点阻力。

If they weren't pushing back, I'd say, OK,

如果他们不反击，我会说，好吧，

maybe I'm not doing it enough.

也许我做得还不够。

But the other piece, on a personal level,

但是另一篇文章，就个人而言，当

I was about seven years old the first time I remember

我记得大概七岁时

some kid coming up to me in the schoolyard and saying,

有个孩子在校园里来找我说：

"My parents didn't vote for your dad.

“我的父母没有投票给你爸爸”

So I don't like you."

“所以我不喜欢你。”

And I had to sort of adjust to the fact that that had nothing to do with me,

而且我必须适应这样一个事实，

who I was.

那就是这与我无关。

It was everything to do with external perceptions

一切都与外部感知有关，

and everything to do with them and I had to learn to put that aside.

我必须学会把它放下。

But then a few years later,

但是几年后

as I got a little more active at going with my dad to different places,

随着我越来越积极地和爸爸 一起去不同的地方，

I'd go to these rallies where everybody loved him

我会去参加集会， 其中每个人都爱戴他，

and therefore everybody loved me.

因此每个人都爱我。

And I also had to learn to put that aside, that it was no realer.

我还必须学会把它也放在脑后， 那不是真的。

The people who loved me automatically

那些自动爱我的人，

than the people who disliked me automatically.

而不是那些自动不喜欢我的人。

And getting a really strong sense of self and being able,

而且要有一种非常强烈的自我意识，

when you get criticisms or congratulations,

当你受到批评或喝彩时，

to reach below the emotions of that and say, OK, well,

能够低估自己的情绪， 然后说，好吧，我能建设性地接受

what is the nugget of useful criticism that I can actually take constructively,

哪些有用的批评，

even if it's not meant that way in the slightest?

即使一点意思都没有？

Did I really go a little too far here,

是我真的做得过分了，

or did I really not take into account the concerns of this community there?

还是我真的没有考虑到那个社区的担忧？

Well, certainly reasonable criticism out there,

肯定有合理的批评，

whether it's constructive or not, you can find that.

无论它是否具有建设性， 你都能找到答案。

And similarly, if people say, "Oh, you're awesome,"

同样，如果人们说： “哦，你太棒了”

Why exactly?

究竟为什么？

Is it just how it makes you feel?

这正是你的感觉吗？

So being able to sort of detach yourself from people's perceptions of you

因此，在一份工作中， 能够脱离别人对你的

is really, really important in a job that is, you know,

看法确实非常重要，也就是说人们

requires a certain amount of popularity for people to vote for you,

需要你一定程度的知名度 才能为你投票，

but you cannot allow that to drive you or even define you.

但你不能允许这推动你甚至定义你。

AG: What do you say to yourself

格兰特：当批评感觉特别痛苦时，

when the criticism feels particularly painful?

你会对自己说什么？

Is it just, "Well, that's my avatar they're reacting to, it's not me?"

难道只是，“嗯，他们反应 的是我的头像，不是我吗？”

JT: More recently, when I see people, you know,

特鲁多：最近， 当我看到人们在仇恨、

really over the top in the kind of the hatred and polarization

两极分化和毒性中名列前茅时，

and toxicity that is just par for the course

这种仇恨、两极分化和毒性

in so many democracies now,

在许多民主国家

my instant pivot is, OK

我的当务之急是他们的生活中发生了什么

so what happened in their lives to lead them to that place?

让他们走到那步境地？

I try to go for a place of empathy, of, well, what can I do,

我尽量去找一个有同情心的地方，

even if they'll never give me credit for it

即使他们为了确保他们的生活不那么糟糕

to make sure that their life is less bad?

而永远不会把功劳归功于我， 我能做什么？

And sometimes I can't imagine how to do it.

有时我无法想象该怎么做。

But other times, like I have to go to a place of reminding myself

但是其他时候，比如我必须 提醒自己，这并不难，

and it's not hard because it’s in me.

因为它存在于我体内。

I'm the prime minister of 40 million Canadians,

我是 4000 万加拿大人的总理

not just the millions who voted for me.

不仅仅是那些投票支持 我的数百万人的总理。

I'm for everyone.

我为了所有人。

And therefore, no matter how much they dislike me,

因此，无论他们多 么不喜欢我，

I still have to try and think about what I can do

我仍然必须努力 思考我能做些什么

to make sure that them or their kids or their community is doing better.

来确保他们或他们的孩子 或他们的社区表现得更好。

And that exercise sort of detaches a little bit

而且那次练习有点

from what their actual opinion is of me.

脱离了他们对我的实际看法。

It gets harder when it goes to my family or some of my team members,

当它落到我的家人 或一些团队成员身上时，

where I'm not as able to detach it, because that's, you know,

情况就变得更难了， 因为你知道，

you're coming after my people.

那是你在追我的员工。

Come after me all you're like, I put my name on a sign,

你就跟我来吧， 我在牌子上写上我的名字，

I'm standing here for election, I'm doing it.

我站在这里参加选举，我正在做。

I'm welcoming it.

我欢迎。

But for others, it makes it harder.

但是对于其他人来说， 这让事情变得更加困难。

AG: Now I'm curious about just the confidence it takes

格兰特：现在我很好奇一开始

to want to do this job in the first place.

想要做这份工作需要多大的信心。

It used to seem to me to be something that required

对我来说这需要

an unusual level of ambition,

寻常的野心，

maybe even arrogance or narcissism, some would say.

甚至可能是傲慢或自恋。

And then over time, I've started to see

然后随着时间的推移，我开始明白

you just have to think that you could do this job better

你只需要认为你可以

than the other viable candidates.

比其他可行的候选人 更好地完成这份工作。

You don't have to think that you're capable of doing a perfect job

你不必 认为自己有能力在

running one of the most powerful countries on earth.

管理地球上其中一个强国上做得很完美。

How do you think about that tightrope?

你怎么看待那条钢丝？

JT: I guess it's not something I think about too much now,

特鲁多：我想我现在想得不多，

because I spent so much time thinking about it over the years.

因为这些年来我花了很多时间 思考这个问题。

I only saw myself getting into politics,

我只看到自己进入政界，

you know, when I was younger, I thought,

你知道，当我年轻的时候，我想，

OK, maybe I do politics one day,

好吧，也许有一天我会参政，

but it'd be much later,

但要等到很久以后，

once I've gotten out from under the weight of my last name

我才摆脱了家族

and historical expectations.

和历史期望的压力。

And, you know, once I've proven myself in business or written a few books

而且你知道，一旦我在商业 领域证明了自己，写了几本书，

or started a school or done things that are really meaningful,

创办了一所学校， 或者做了真正有意义的事情，

and then I can go in on my first name.

然后我就可以用自己的名字了。

But in my 30s, I was very much a youth activist.

但是在我 30 多岁的时候， 我是一名青年活动家。

I was doing environmental stuff.

我在做环境方面的工作。

I was a teacher through my 20s.

我在 20 多岁之前一直是一名教师。

And I learned from working with young people,

我从与我父亲没有任何关系的

who had no connection to my father,

年轻人一起工作中了解到，

that I had things worth saying.

我有话值得说。

And as I sort of got, you know, pulled in, a little bit indirectly,

你知道， 当我有点间接地

into partisan politics,

参与党派政治时

I realized, I'm actually good at the things my dad wasn't great at,

我意识到，我其实很 擅长那些我父亲不擅长的事情

which is the campaigning, the handshaking, everything.

比如竞选活动、握手等等。

I learned that it was very much my maternal grandfather's side,

我了解到这在很大程度上是 我外祖父的一边，

who was, Jimmy Sinclair, was a great retail politician, he loved it.

吉米·辛克莱是一位出色的 零售政治家，他很喜欢。

As I discovered that I was good at pulling people together

当我发现自己 擅长将人们团结起来、

and mobilizing them and organizing and inspiring

动员他们、组织和激励

and building a great team,

以及建设一支优秀的团队时，

I got more and more into politics

我越来越多地涉足政治

and every step of the way,

和前进的每一步中，

I was somewhat hesitant to take the next step.

我对迈出下一步有些犹豫。

My father's party, the Liberal Party, reached a total nadir,

我父亲的政党自由党 达到了最低点，比如，

like, we were down to 35 seats in the 300-plus seat House.

我们在超过 300 个席位的众议院 中降至 35 个席位。

We were on our way to oblivion when I came in as leader,

当我以领导者的身份上任时， 我们正处于被遗忘的路上，

and it was an opportunity to rebuild from scratch.

那是一个东山再起的机会。

But then as I looked around at who else could be leader,

但是当我环顾四周还有谁 能成为领导者时，

I realized, oh wait, nobody gets how hard the work is going to be

我意识到，等等， 没有人知道工作会有多艰苦，

or the work that needs to be done,

也没有人知道需要做的工作，

and I can sort of see that clearly.

我能清楚地看出这一点。

So I'm sort of going to be the one who does it,

所以我一定 会是做这件事的人，

because it's going to take an incredible amount of work

因为这需要 大量的工作，我认为我

that I think I can do better than others.

能比其他人做得更好。

And turns out, I was pretty good at it

事实证明，在重建党派方面，

in terms of rebuilding the party.

我非常擅长。

AG: You mentioned feeling hesitant to take a leadership role.

格兰特：你提到过 对担任领导职务感到犹豫不决。

Some of our PhD students at Wharton have shown that a feeling of reluctance,

我们在沃顿商学院 的一些博士生已经表明，

of saying, "I'm not sure if I want this"

当你掌舵时不情愿地说：

actually can lead to more effective behavior

“我不确定我是否想要这个”

when you're at the helm,

实际上会导致更有效的行为，

because you don't think you know all the answers.

因为你认为自己不知道所有的答案。

You don't think you have to make every decision yourself,

你不认为你必须自己做出每一个决定，

and it may actually lead you to empower other people more

这实际上可能会让你更多地赋予其他人

to learn from other people around you.

向周围其他人学习的能力。

JT: Oh, yeah, no, absolutely.

特鲁多：哦，绝对不是。

Being a good leader,

作为一名优秀的领导者，

if I was going to be any good in this job,

如果我要在这份工作中表现出色，

I had to bring around the most brilliant,

我必须尽我所能聘请最优秀、

successful, smartest, most driven people I possibly could to build the team.

最成功、最聪明、 最有动力的人来组建团队。

And I sort of understand that I come to it

而且我大概明白，我

with an ability to bring people together

有能力将人们聚集在一起，

and mobilize them and create a big vision.

动员他们，创造一个宏伟的愿景。

But leadership for me was never

但是对我来说，领导力从来就不是

about being the one at the top of the pyramid,

站在金字塔顶端，

you know, barking out orders.

发号施令。

A good leader is someone who's figuring out

优秀的领导者是指 能够弄清楚

how every member of the team can be at peak performance

如何让团队中的每位成员

in the most important moments,

在最重要的时刻保持最佳表现，

and that idea of lifting up everyone around you

而提升身边所有人的想法

is the way I sort of fell into this leadership role.

就是我进入这个领导岗位的方式。

AG: One of the risks of surrounding yourself

格兰特：与你认为比你聪明的人在

with people you think are smarter than you

一起的风险之一是，

is that sometimes you feel like an impostor and you wonder,

有时候你会觉得自己顶替了别人

do I really belong here?

你想知道，我真的属于这里吗？

Has that affected you over the last eight years at all?

在过去的八年里， 这对你有影响吗？

JT: I was very aware of the impostor syndrome all my life.

特鲁多：我一生都非常了解 冒名者综合症。

As a teacher, I kept waiting for someone to knock on the door

作为一名教师， 我一直在等着有人来敲门

and say, "This was a terrible mistake, we're pulling you."

说：“这是一个可怕的错误， 我们要撤掉你。”

Or any time I was giving a speech on environmental responsibility,

或者每当我发表 有关环境责任的演讲时，

I was expecting someone,

我都期待有人说：

"You never actually finished your graduate studies in environmental geography.

“你实际上从未完成过 环境地理学的研究生学习。

What are you doing?"

你在干什么？”

I was very aware of that.

我对此非常在意。

The first day I walked onto Parliament Hill as an elected MP,

我作为民选议员走上国会山的第一天，

after what was a very tough election for our party,

在我们党经历了一次非常艰难的选举，

but it was good for me in 2008,

但 2008 年的选举对我有好处，

I searched for that impostor syndrome.

我就在寻找那种冒名顶替综合症。

I said, OK, here it's going to come.

我说，好吧，它会来的。

And it wasn't there.

而且它不存在。

And for the first time in my life,

这是我人生中的第一次，

and I think it was because I worked so hard on the ground for the two years

我想那是因为我在这两年

to sort of overcome people's name recognition expectations of me,

里努力克服了人们对我的 知名度期望，比如，

like, all my opponents then and pretty much since,

当时和之后我所有的对手

have said, "Oh, it's just an accident of history

都说：“哦，他扮演

that he's in the role he is.

这个角色只是历史的偶然。

He's expecting everyone to vote for him because of his last name.

他希望所有人 因为他的姓氏而投票给他。

And that'll catch up with him sooner or later."

这迟早会赶上他。”

Or, “He won’t get elected the first time.”

或者，“他不会第一次当选。”

And I worked the ground,

然后我在实地工作，

I went door to door right across the district.

我挨家挨户地穿过这个地区。

I got to all the different community organizations,

我加入了所有不同的社区组织，

and I earned their support in that election.

在那次选举中我赢得了他们的支持。

And people actually came out,

然后人们出来在我的名字旁边

put a little X beside my name and said,

打了一个小 X 然后说：

"No, we definitely want you to go."

“不，我们一定要你离开。”

And I'm like, OK.

然后我想，好吧。

People actually chose me through a process of saying,

实际上，人们选择我的过程是这样说的，

we're trusting you to be our voice in Ottawa,

我们相信你能 成为我们在渥太华的代言人，

and we're making that choice deliberately.

而我们是有意做出这个选择的。

And I'd also run in a very authentic way about who I was and what I was.

而且我还会用一种非常真实的方式来 描述自己的身份和身份。

And I felt that people knew what they were getting

而且我觉得人们知道在我所在的地区

when they voted for me in my district.

投票支持我时会得到什么。

And so I didn't feel that impostor syndrome,

所以我没有感觉到那种冒名顶替症，

and I haven't since.

从那以后我也没有。

I keep saying, look, I will continue to serve.

我一直在说，你们看， 我会继续为你们服务。

I'll continue to do the best I can

我将继续尽我所能

and try to do it in as authentic a way as possible,

并以尽可能真实 的方式做到这一点，

way that is true to me with all the strengths and flaws

这种方式对我来说是真实的， 尽管我具有所有优点和缺点，

that I have as any individual does.

就像任何个人一样。

AG: Well, what you're describing

格兰特：嗯，你所描述的

tracks with the evidence of impostor thoughts --

有冒名者思想证据--

JT: I'm so glad to hear that.

特鲁多：我很高兴听到你这么说。

AG You would otherwise have to change the way that you think.

格兰特：否则你将 不得不改变自己的思维方式。

JT: Because that's what psychologists do so well,

特鲁多：因为这是 心理学家最擅长的地方，

they make people change the way they think.

他们让人们改变思维方式。

AG: We do that for a living and it always works.

格兰特：我们以此为生， 而且一直有效。

JT: You're so successful, exactly, exactly.

特鲁多：没错，你太成功了。

AG: Thank you for respecting my profession

格兰特：总理，感谢您尊重我的职业，

every bit as much as I admire yours, Prime Minister.

就像我钦佩您的职业一样。

I think that, in all seriousness,

我认为，说真的，

one of the surprising benefits of those impostor thoughts

这些冒名思想的惊人好处之一是，

is they create a gap between what you think other people expect of you

它们在你认为别人对你的期望和

and what you feel capable of.

你认为自己有能力 做到的事情之间造成差距。

And that leaves you motivated to close the gap, which you did.

这使你有动力缩小差距， 你确实这样做了。

Do you ever worry that not feeling like an impostor makes you complacent?

你有没有担心不觉得自己 像个冒名顶替者会让你沾沾自喜？

JT: No. There's no ability to be complacent in this job.

特鲁多：不是。在这份工作中， 没有人可以沾沾自喜。

Not when you're still charged up about it.

当你还对此充满信心的时候，就不行了。

The challenges, particularly in this time,

这些挑战，尤其是这个时代，

that continue to get thrown at us,

我们会继续面临挑战，

all the range of crises that are hitting right now all around the world,

包括目前在世界各地、

our democracies, but also our countries,

我们的民主，还有我们的国家，

combined with all the steady progressive work

再加上我们需要做的所有稳步工作

that we need to do of, you know, lifting kids out of poverty

比如让儿童摆脱贫困

and helping with 10-dollar-a-day child care

为他们提供每天10美元的托儿服务、

and delivering the fight against climate change

应对气候变化、

and creating good jobs through a greener economy.

通过绿色经济创造良好的就业机会。

And, you know, working with reconciliation with Indigenous people.

还有努力与原住民和解。

There are so many big things we have to keep doing

在俄乌战争、中东冲突、 气候变化席卷全球、

while there's war in Ukraine, conflict in the Middle East,

民主国家倒退、外国干预、

you know, climate change hitting the world,

专制政体崛起，

backsliding of democracies, foreign interference, you know,

所有这些都在发生的时候，

rise of autocracies, there's all this going on.

我们必须继续做很多重要的事情。

There's no complacency in this job.

在这份工作中绝不能沾沾自喜。

AG: You're describing some of the many things

格兰特：你描述的是使这项工作

that make this one of the hardest jobs on earth.

成为世界上最艰巨的工作之一 的众多因素中的一部分。

And it's unbelievable to me that it comes with so little training.

令我难以置信的是， 它只需要这么少的训练。

But here you are, doing this job every day.

但是你在这里，每天都在 从事这项工作。

How do you deal with the ongoing thoughts about,

你如何处理持续存在的

"Do I want to keep doing this?"

“我想继续这样做吗？” 的想法

I know you've gone on record

我知道你已经记录在案地

saying you think about quitting approximately every day.

说你几乎每天都在考虑戒烟。

JT: Yeah, I think that's part of a process

特鲁多：是的，我认为 这是流程的一部分，

where if you're going to be honest about doing a job like this,

如果你要诚实地

that has the responsibilities and the impact that it has,

对待这样一份有责任和影响的工作，

you have to check,

你必须检查，

maybe not every day,

也许不是每天都要检查，

but you have to check that you're up for it,

但你必须检查 自己是否做好了准备，

that you're all in every given day

每天都全力以赴，

because people out there,

因为外面的人，

the 40 million people that I am directly responsible for serving

我直接负责服务的那 4000 万人，

deserve a leader that is focused on them with everything they have

理应有一位全神贯注于他们的领导者

every single day

一年 365 天

and that sort of check on, you know, am I able to do that?

都有这样的检查，我能做到吗？

Am I motivating my team to do that?

我有在激励我的团队这样做吗？

Am I driving that forward?

我在推动它向前发展吗？

Am I fully all in,

我全身心投入了吗？

even though I've been in it for a few years,

尽管我的对手由于 种种错误的原因而受到关注，

even though it's harder now than it was before,

尽管现在比以前更难， 但我还是全力以赴了，

even though my opponent's getting traction for all the wrong reasons.

尽管我已经参与其中几年了。

All those different things, if they're enough to make you say

如果所有这些不同的事足以让你说

"yeah, no, maybe" then you shouldn't be doing it.

“也许没有”， 那么你就不应该这样做。

I learned this being a teacher

我从当老师中学到了这一点

where I would, you know, work hard all day,

你知道，我会整天努力工作，

come home absolutely exhausted,

回家时精疲力尽，

but so excited about what the next day was going to bring.

但对第二天会发生的事 情感到非常兴奋。

When you find a job that charges you up like that,

当你找到一份能让你 付出这样高昂代价的工作，

where you are deeply excited about doing it,

无论工作变得多么艰难，

no matter how hard it gets,

你都对这份工作深感兴奋，

and aware of the awesome responsibility and impact that you get to have,

并意识到自己将承担的巨大责任 和影响力，

then it's sort of intellectually honest to check yourself,

那么检查一下自己，

check in with yourself regularly.

定期自查就是一种理智上的诚实态度。

AG: How often do you actually think about quitting?

格兰特：你实际上多 久一次考虑过戒烟？

JT: These days, not at all.

特鲁多：近期一次也没有。

There was a moment last year,

去年有一段时间，

as I was facing some difficult moments in my marriage

当我面临婚姻中 的一些艰难时刻时，

where I really wondered, OK, is there a path?

我真的在想有出路吗？

And I just realized that that's not me.

我刚刚意识到那不是我。

There is so much to do still.

还有很多工作要做。

And the stakes are ...

而关于对我国民主的赌注...

higher in some ways for our democracies than ever before.

在某些方面比以往任何时候都要高。

The need to try and hold things together in a rational discourse

尝试围绕做一些有意义的事情，

around doing things that are meaningful

通过理性的讨论将事物联系起来，

and are going to nudge the arc of the moral universe forward

推动道德世界向前发展

matters so much

非常重要

that I couldn't be the person I am,

以至于我无法成为我现在的人，

the fighter I am,

我现在的战士，

and say, yeah, no, this particular fight I'm walking away from.

然后说，不，我要离开这场特别的战斗。

No, I can't do that yet.

不，我还做不到。

AG: You look like you're having fun in your job

格兰特： 考虑到工作中的种种压力， 你看起来在工作中获得乐趣的频率

more often than I would expect, given all the stressors of the work.

比我预想的要多。

But I also, I don't want leaders to have too much fun.

但我不想让领导者有太多乐趣。

And I think about some evidence

我想到了一些证据，

that guilt-prone leaders are actually more effective

表明容易产生罪恶感的领导者 实际上更有效，

because they're more likely to think about mistakes they made

因为他们更有可能思考自己犯的错误

and try to right wrongs as opposed to,

并努力纠正错误，而不是，

you know, just sleeping well every night.

只是每天晚上睡个好觉。

Talk to me about what guilt feels like in this role,

跟我讲讲作为这个角色有什么内疚感，

because I don't like being responsible for four people, let alone 40 million.

因为我不喜欢为四个人负责， 更不用说 4000 万个人了。

JT: Anytime you see me having fun,

特鲁多：每当你看到我有乐趣时，

I'm connecting with people.

我都会与人建立关系。

Like, I'm doing things where people are having genuine interactions

比如，我正在做让人们真诚互动的事情

and that's real.

那是真实的。

The work I do here at this desk, the debates in chamber,

我在这张办公桌上 所做的工作、会议厅的

the things like that, that can be a bit of a grind.

辩论之类的事可能有点麻烦。

I mean, that's sort of the solitary work

我的意思是，那些是孤身一人的工作，

or the teamwork around the cabinet table,

或者是围绕内阁会议桌的团队合作，

you know, figuring things out, wrestling with big decisions and stuff.

想办法解决问题， 为重大决策之类的事情而苦苦挣扎。

That's not always fun.

这并不总是很有趣。

You've always got to think about the opportunity cost,

你必须时刻考虑机会成本，

what the consequences are,

后果是什么，

and just being aware of the weight of these decisions is fine,

只要意识到这些决定的重要性就可以了，

but also not putting on yourself a level of ...

但也不要给 自己设定一定的期望...

Expectations to be perfect all the time.

无时无刻都要做得完美

I mean, so many politicians spend all their time saying,

我的意思是，这么多政客把 所有的时间都花在说：

"I can't make any mistakes."

“我不能犯任何错误。”

If you can be authentic,

如果你能说实话，

and the one thing that I tend to fall back on is,

我倾向于依靠的一件事是，

I think Canadians have a pretty good sense of where my values are,

我认为加拿大人对我的价值观在哪里和

what I'm trying to fight for.

我想要为之奋斗的东西有很好的认识。

I'm trying to build a more inclusive,

我正在努力建设一个更具包容、

positive society in which everyone has a fair chance

更积极的社会，在这个社会中， 每个人都有公平的机会。

and where, I'm sure, do some suboptimal things in this policy or that.

我敢肯定，在这个或那个政策中， 我会做一些不太理想的事情。

But when a crisis hits, when a challenge hits,

但是，当危机来临时，当挑战来临时，

I'll, as we all do,

我将像我们所有人一样，

revert to our core values and our core instincts.

回归我们的核心价值观和核心本能。

I think that's important.

我认为这很重要。

In regards to sleep, that's one of my rules.

这是我对睡眠的规则之一。

I sleep about eight or nine hours every night.

我每晚睡大约八九个小时。

I exercise as much as I can,

我尽我所能地锻炼身体

I eat well, I play well with my kids, with friends,

我吃得好，和孩子们、朋友们玩得很好

you know, getting that balance of being a real person and not saying,

你知道，要保持平衡， 要做一个真实的人，不要说，

for these years that I am prime minister,

在我担任总理的这些年里，

I have to be only prime minister and focus only on that.

我只能当总理，只需要专注于这一点。

I mean, that's a route to madness.

我的意思是，这是一条通往疯狂的途径。

It can still be me that finds joy even after difficult moments

即使在困难的时刻之后， 我仍然可以找到快乐，

and getting that balance

并保持平衡，

of allowing myself to be a real whole person

让自己成为一个真正的人，

with good days and bad days and successes and challenges

有好日子和坏日子，有成功和挑战，

I think grounds and uplifts you at the same time.

我会同时思考和提振你。

AG: I imagine one aspect of your job

格兰特：我想你现在的工作中

that's harder now than it used to be

比以前更难的一个方面

is getting people to speak truth to power.

是让人们对权力说实话。

You come into office,

你上任后，

you were peer with a lot of the people that you've brought in,

你与你引进的许多人是同龄人，

and now anybody you hire has to look at the prime minister.

现在你雇用的任何人都必须考虑总理。

How do you make it safe for people to speak up?

你如何让人们可以安全地发言？

JD: I want to focus on making sure people were their community’s voice in Ottawa,

特鲁多：我想重点确保 人们在渥太华和议会

in Parliament,

成为他们社区的代言人，

instead of being Parliament's voice in their communities.

而不是议会在社区中的代言人。

We sit in 338 seats in the House of Commons,

我们在下议院有338个席 位，我们每个人，

where each of us, including me,

包括我在内

represents a very specific district.

都代表着一个非常特殊的选区。

And our responsibility is to vote

我们的责任是投票

and speak for the people,

为民众代言

our peers who elected us to come and sit in this House.

他们是选举我们 来众议院就职的同行。

And anchoring my team,

并支持我的团队，

all the MPs,

所有国会议员，

in their responsibility to speak for their community,

有责任为社区代言，

even if that's, you know,

即使这是对我

concerns with something I'm doing

正在做的事情的担忧，

is really, really important.

确实非常重要。

That actually leads not to negative consequences for them,

这实际上不会给他们 带来负面影响，

but to me saying, OK, because I heard you on this one,

但我要说，好吧， 因为我听见了你在谈这个问题，

as we move forward on this policy

随着我们推进这项政策

that I know isn't going to be really popular

我知道这项政策

in some parts of your community,

在你的社区的某些地方不会真正受欢迎，

I'm going to say that I know it's not going to be popular,

我要说我知道会这样，

or we're going to bring in this mitigation,

或者我们会采取这种缓解措施，

or we're going to try and adjust this,

或者我们会尝试调整这个政策，

and creating a space where people can share with me their concerns

创造一个人们可以与我 分享的空间他们的担忧

in a way that I'm not going to fly off the handle at them

我不会逃避他们的担忧

or belittle them,

或者贬低他们，

just basic interpersonal ability to take criticism

只是接受批评的基本人际交往能力，

and, you know, put people at ease

而且，你知道，当人们告诉你一些

when they're telling you something they think you don't want to hear,

他们认为你不想听的话时， 缓和他们的情绪

which, maybe you don't,

也许你不想听，

is part of being a leader that actually pulls together diversity.

这是成为真正凝聚 多元化的领导者的一部分。

And you cannot run or serve a country like Canada

而且除非你准备好完全拥抱多元化，

unless you're ready to fully embrace diversity.

否则你无法管理或 为像加拿大这样的国家服务。

If you can't model that amongst your team,

如果你无法在团队中树立这种榜样，

then how are you going to do right

那么在一个 像我们这样错综复杂的国家里，

by a country that is as variegated as we are?

你将如何做正确的事？

AG: Well, I'd love to know what your team is pushing you to improve at.

格兰特：嗯，我很想知道你的团队 在督促你改进什么。

How are you trying to grow as a leader?

你想如何成长为领导者？

What feedback or notes have you gotten lately?

你最近收到了什么反馈或笔记？

JT: I've been on a kick lately of just saying,

特鲁多：我最近一直在开玩笑地说：

"Look, if we could just explain what this policy actually is,

“你看，如果我们能解释一下 这个政策到底是什么，

if we could show the charts and the graphs,

我们能不能展示出图表数据

and if I could just sit down and talk through

如果我能坐下来谈谈

why this is the right policy

为什么这是正确的政策

and how it's actually going to help,

以及它到底会如何提供帮助， 然后每个人都会明白，

and everyone will get it and they'll agree and then we can move on,

他们会同意 然后我们就可以继续前进，

and there won't be this debate over whether putting a price on pollution

就不会有人争论为人们带来收益的

that puts more money back in people's pockets is a good idea or not,

污染定价是否是好主意，

because everyone will see.

因为如果我能解释得够多 并使用正确的图表

If I could just explain it enough and use the right charts."

每个人都会明白。”

People are like, "Boss, you're not a teacher anymore."

人们会说： “老板，你不再是老师了。”

My team, my MPs will come to me and say, "No, no,

我的团队，我的国会议员会来找我说：

we just need you to get out there and talk about the world we're building

“不，我们只需要你走出去谈谈

and reassure people that you've got the plan

我们正在建设的世界， 向人们保证你有规划

and you're confident in it

而且你有信心，

and you're projecting it,

你预料着

and we're going to get to that better place,

然后我们会去更好的地方，

and you're going to reassure them,

你要让他们放心，

and you're going to connect with them

你要与他们建立联系，

and stop it with the explaining."

并通过解释来停止计划。”

And that's one that I've had a lot of trouble with.

那是我遇到过很多麻烦的。

And I think my team finally said, "OK, fine,

我想我的团队 最后说：“好吧”

we'll make you do lots of podcasts instead,"

“我们改为让你做很多播客”，

where I do get to do, as one of our mayors once famously put,

正如我们的一位 市长曾经说过的那样，

politics in full sentences.

用整句话讲政治。

AG: I have a clear vision of what the meeting looked like

格兰特：我对你离开会议室

after you left the room.

后的会议是什么样子有了清晰的认识。

"PM is trying to show PowerPoint again.

“总理正在尝试再次显示 PPT。

How do we get around this? Podcasts!"

我们如何解决这个问题？播客！”

JT: Exactly, exactly.

特鲁多：没错，没错。

It was pretty much it, I said no,

差不多就是这样，我说不，

I even wrote a script for an explainer video where I can do this.

我甚至为一个讲解视频写了一个脚本， 在那里我可以这么做。

And it was like, "God, OK, we'll try."

就像，“天哪，好吧，我们会努力的。”

And they've done little bits of it and some of them work a bit,

他们做了一点小事， 有些人也做了一些工作，

but it's still me trying to be a teacher,

但仍然是我在努力成为一名教师，

as opposed to me being the leader

而不是我作为领导者

that is telling the story of where Canada goes.

讲述加拿大的发展方向。

AG: Well, that, I think, is a good segue to the lightning round.

格兰特：嗯，我认为这是个好过渡， 下面进入快速问答时间。

Are you ready for this?

你准备好了吗？

I have a bunch of rapid-fire questions.

我有一堆快速提问。

First one is, who's a leader you admire who's no longer alive?

第一个问题是， 你敬佩哪位已过世的领导者？

JT: My dad.

特鲁多：我的父亲。

AG: That's an easy one.

格兰特：这道题很简单。

Anyone you're not related to that you would add?

你会补充任何与你无关的人吗？

JT: Lincoln's appeal to the better angels of our natures

特鲁多：我经常回想起林肯对我们天性中

is one that I always go back to

更善良一面的呼吁，

as he handled a divided country

因为他以最具挑战性的方式

in the most challenging ways.

处理了一个分裂的国家。

You know, I think to him, every now and then.

你知道，我时不时地想着他。

AG: I feel a little bad that you chose an American leader.

格兰特：你选择了一位美国领导人， 我感到有点难过。

JT: No, you shouldn't.

特鲁多：不，你不应该。

America has provided some of the best leaders

美国贡献了一些世界上有史以来

the world has ever seen.

最出色的领导人。

AG: OK, so one of my all-time favorite Canadian contests

格兰特：好吧，所以我一直以来 最喜欢的加拿大比赛之一

was to come up with an equivalent

就是为加拿大想出一个相当于

of "as American as apple pie" for Canada.

“像苹果派一样美式” 的比赛。

JT: And the answer in Canada was

特鲁多：加拿大的答案是特鲁多

"as Canadian as possible under the circumstances."

“在这种情况下 尽可能地成为加拿大人”。

AG: You have done your homework.

格兰特：你已经完成了功课。

JT: Yeah, it's a classic Gzowski piece.

特鲁多：是的， 这是格佐夫斯基的经典作品。

AG: What does that mean to you?

格兰特：这对你来说意味着什么？

JT: Oh, God, that's a good question.

特鲁多：哦，天哪，这是个好问题。

I think it means that we're people who understand compromise

我认为这意味着我们是理解妥协

and reality.

和现实的人。

That things don't always go towards our ideal.

这些事情并不总是 朝着我们的理想方向发展。

There's no manifest destiny like there is in the United States.

没有像美国那样显而易见的命运。

It's a sense of, you know, we're going to figure this out.

这是一种感觉, 我们会弄清楚的。

We're going to roll up our sleeves,

我们将撸起袖子，

we're going to figure out how to get along,

想出如何相处，

and solve the problems given the tools we have.

并利用我们拥有的 工具解决问题。

AG: Basically it's a slogan for Canadian agreeableness

格兰特：基本上， 这是加拿大友好性

and adaptability.

和适应性的口号。

JT: You know, saying sorry after someone bumps into you

特鲁多：你知道， 在有人碰到你之后说对不起

is a way of, you know, easing that dynamic as well.

也是缓解这种动态的一种方式。

AG: Touche.

格兰特：触碰。

What's the worst piece of leadership advice you've been given?

你得到的最糟糕 的领导力建议是什么？

JT: Try to be more like your dad.

特鲁多：尽量变得更像你爸爸。

AG: Why was that bad advice?

格兰特：为什么这个建议不好？

JT: Because I'm not him.

特鲁多：因为我不是他。

And people say, "I like the way you did that,

然后人们说：“我喜欢你的做法，

It was just like your dad."

就像你爸爸一样。”

I'm like, "I have to be careful of that."

我想，“我得小心点。”

Growing up with parents who are very successful or take up a lot of space,

与非常成功或占用大量空间的父母

you know, forces you to be very deliberate

一起成长，会迫使你非常谨慎地

about what you're choosing to take from them,

考虑自己选择从他们那里

what you're choosing not to.

拿走什么，选择不去做什么。

And then you have to deal with all the expectations.

然后你必须满足所有的期望。

All my life, people said, "Your dad was prime minister,

在我的一生中，人们都在说： “你爸爸是总理，

Do you want to be prime minister, too?"

你也想当总理吗？”

My kids are going through it now, too.

我的孩子现在也在经历这种情况。

"Two generations.

“两代人。

Are you going to be the third generation?"

你会成为第三代吗？”

And it's like, "I'm a teenager.

就像，“我是一个少年。

What the hell do I know?" Right?

我到底知道什么？”对吧？

And learning how to be grounded in who and what you are

而且，学习如何扎根 于自己的身份，对此无悔，

and unapologetic about it

不要试图成为你永远

and not trying to be something you're not ever

不会成为的人，

is hugely important.

这一点非常重要。

AG: What's something you've rethought lately?

格兰特：你最近重新思考了什么？

JT: Rethinking all the forces that ended up leaving Canadians ...

特鲁多：重新思考所有最终离开 加拿大人的力量

Divided or grumpy post-pandemic.

疫情后的分裂或脾气暴躁。

During the pandemic, we scrambled to try and do everything we could.

在疫情期间，我们争先恐后 地尽我们所能。

We delivered a 500-dollar-a-week income replacement for low-income people.

我们为低收入人群提供了 每周 500 美元的收入替代方案。

We brought in a 75 percent wage subsidy that kept people on the payrolls.

我们引入了 75％ 的工资补贴， 使人们留在工资单上。

We encouraged and, you know,

我们鼓励并创造了

created conditions in which everyone was encouraged to get vaccination.

鼓励所有人接种疫苗的条件。

We had a higher double-vaccination rate than just about any of our peer countries.

我们的双重疫苗接种率 比任何同行国家都要高。

We had a less bad pandemic than just about any of our peer countries.

我们的疫情没有其他 任何同行国家那么严重。

And yet, some of the lingering impacts of those policies

但是，这些政策的一些挥之不去的影响

continue to divide Canadians.

继续使加拿大人产生分歧。

And I'm still trying to figure out how to bring Canadians back together.

而且我仍在努力弄清楚 如何让加拿大人重新团结起来。

And it's something I'm grappling with.

这是我正在努力解决的问题。

AG: What's a book you read recently that you loved?

格兰特：你最近读了什么你喜欢的书？

JT: "The Invisible Life of Addie LaRue,"

特鲁多：“艾迪·拉鲁的隐形生活”，

which is a lovely story of a young woman who was born in, like,

这是一个可爱的故事， 讲述了一位出生于

17th-century France,

17 世纪法国的年轻女子，

who made a Faustian bargain and lived forever.

她达成了浮士德式的协议， 并永远活了下来。

But anyone she met would instantly forget her the second she walked past.

但是当她走过的那一刻， 她遇到的任何人都会立刻忘记她。

And what kind of a life is that when you actually can't have a lasting impact

当你实际上无法对周围的人产生持久影响

on anyone around you?

那是什么样的生活呢？

I read almost only fiction on my downtime

我休息时几乎只读小说，

because I read so much nonfiction for work.

因为我在工作时读了很多 非小说类书籍。

AG: What's the question you have for me?

格兰特：你有什么问题要问我？

JT: Well, you give advice to leaders of all different types

特鲁多：嗯，鉴于社交媒体，

on how to adjust

在后疫情时代的背景下，

and how to lead today,

你向所有不同类型的领导者提供

given social media, given post-pandemic world, all that.

有关如何调整和如何领导今天的建议。

Would you give the same advice or different advice to political leaders

你会像对待其他类型的领导人一样

as you would to other types of leaders

向政治领导人提出同样的建议 或不同的建议吗？

and what would be your best advice

在这个分裂时期，

on how to create cohesive communities

你对如何建立有凝聚力的社区的

in this time of division?

最佳建议是什么？

AG: I think I'd say both.

格兰特：我想我会两者兼而有之。

I give some of the same advice,

我给出了一些同样的建议，

because I think there are aspects of leadership

因为我认为无论你身处什么环境，

that generalize regardless of what environment you're in.

领导力的某些方面都会被普遍采用。

At the end of the day, you have to make good decisions.

归根结底，你必须做出正确的决定。

You have to get people to respect your integrity and your competence

你必须让人们尊重你的诚信、能力

and your care and want to follow you.

和关怀，并愿意跟随你。

And so I guess my most basic message to leaders in any environment

因此，我想我在任何环境中 向领导者传达的最基本的信息是

would be put your mission above your ego.

将你的使命置于你的自我之上。

That's an easy one.

这很简单。

Things I would say differently to political leaders,

我想对政治领导人说的话有所不同，

although I actually think

虽然我实际上

that the business world has become more like this in recent years,

认为近年来商业世界变得 越来越像这样，

our political leaders have to care a lot more about constituents

但我们的政治领导人必须更加关心选民、

and their opinions and their approval ratings.

他们的意见和支持率。

And I think that now we're actually seeing

而且我认为，现在我们实际上看到

that leaders are facing that kind of pressure in other environments as well.

领导者在其他环境中 也面临着这样的压力。

In terms of your question about how to bring people together

关于你提出的如何将人们聚集在一起

and create community,

并创建社区的问题，

I don't think anybody has easy answers.

我认为没有人能给出简单的答案。

And as a social scientist,

作为一名社会科学家，在过去的几年里，

I've been wracking my brain on it for the last few years

我一直在研究这个问题，

and reading everything I could find.

阅读我能找到的所有东西。

And I think probably the most useful thing that I've come across

而且我认为我遇到的最有用的可能是，

is a lot of people are very quick to slip into binary bias:

很多人很快就会陷入二元偏见：

good versus bad, us versus them.

非好即坏，非我们即他们。

Pick your least favorite version of it.

选择你最不喜欢的版本。

The way that we normally try to fight that is we try to build up,

我们通常 尝试与之作斗争的方式是努力建立

"we're good, they're bad."

“我们很好，他们很坏” 的理念

And I think a better solution is to say we actually need a door number three.

而且我认为更好的解决方案是说 我们实际上需要一扇三号门。

We need to ask, OK, if these two views are dividing people,

我们需要问，好吧， 如果这两种观点让人们分裂，

what's the third point of view

那么沉默的大多数人实际上

that actually the silent majority might hold?

可能持有的第三种观点是什么？

And that seems to me at least to be a good starting point

在我看来，

for thinking through this.

这至少是思考这个问题 的一个很好的起点。

JT: No, listen, I love that.

特鲁多：不，听着，我很喜欢。

And I've been reading on a phenomenon

我一直在读一种现象

that says the majority actually starts to think it's in the minority now

它说大多数人现在实际上 开始认为自己属于少数，

because those minorities are so loud, you know,

因为这些少数群体的声音太大了， 外面的噪音太大了，

there's so much noise out there that people start questioning

以至于人们开始质疑

that goodness and thoughtfulness of the silent majority.

沉默的多数人的善良和思虑。

I think I'm someone who got into politics to try and pull people together.

我想我是一个进入政治领域 试图将人们团结在一起的人。

And it is so easy

而且很

to fall into sort of

容易陷入某种

divisive rhetoric

分裂的言论

or ...

或者...

or even position.

甚至立场。

Then you have to be careful with this, too.

那你也必须小心谨慎。

I mean, I made the decision early on in my leadership

我的意思是，我在领导初期

that I was only going to have pro-choice MPs.

就决定只有赞成选择的国会议员。

That members of Parliament needed to be willing to stand up

这些议员需要愿意捍卫

for a woman's right to choose.

女性的选择权。

And a lot of people accused me of being divisive on that

很多人指责我在这方面存在分歧，

because I was excluding, you know,

因为你知道，我将

parts of the population from being able to run for our party.

部分民众排除在外， 无法竞选我们的党。

And traditionally our party had had both sides of that debate,

传统上，我们的党在这场辩论中有两面，

both pro-choice and anti-choice.

既有赞成也有反对。

And that is a position that,

另一方面，

on the one hand, is somewhat divisive, right?

这种立场有些分裂，对吧？

Because I am saying, no,

因为我的意思是，不，

you don't get to take away a woman's right to choose.

你不能剥夺女性的选择权。

But at the same time, it's one that I believe

但同时，我认为从绝对角度来看，

is the right position in absolute terms.

这是正确的立场。

It's empowering an individual woman to make whatever choice she wants.

它赋予女性个人权力， 让她们能够做出自己想要的任何选择。

If she wants to be anti-abortion, she can do that.

如果她想反堕胎，她可以做到。

If she wants to start a family, like, she gets that choice.

比如，如果她想组建家庭， 她有这样的选择。

But it's portrayed as a binary situation

但它被描绘成一种二元局面，

that has caused me to really think about the nature

这促使我真正思考如何，

of you know, taking a clear position on a thorny issue

在一个棘手的问题上采取明确的立场，

versus trying to accommodate as many different viewpoints.

而不是试图容纳尽可能多的不同观点。

And obviously, in many situations, you want to bring people together

显然，在许多情况下， 你想让人们团结起来，

on, you know, protecting the environment is good.

保护环境是件好事。

And, you know, growing the society for everyone is good.

而且，你知道， 为所有人发展社会是件好事。

But sometimes there are sharp lines to be drawn.

但是有时需要划清界限。

And navigating the difference in those moments

在两极分化和网络分歧

is something that is fraught with extra peril

不断扩大的时代，

in a time of polarization

处理这些时刻的差异

and such amplification of divisions online.

是一件充满额外危险的事情。

AG: When you navigate these kinds of decisions now with your team,

格兰特：当你现在与团队 一起做出这类决策时，

how do you actually go about thinking through the different options?

你实际上是如何考虑不同的选择的？

What does your decision process actually look like?

你的决策过程到底是什么样子？

JT: Well, I try to anchor myself in trying to find out

特鲁多：嗯，我首先要努力找出

what the actual right decision is, first and foremost.

真正正确的决定是什么。

What is the best science

关于这个问题最好的科学

or the most up-to-date science on it?

或最新的科学是什么？

What is the consensus?

共识是什么？

What are the experts saying?

专家们怎么说？

Can we find experts to disagree with each other

我们能否找到彼此意见不一致的专家，

and try and pull from them their points of disagreement,

试着从他们身上找出分歧，

to find if there is a position

看看是否存在

that actually you can build some sort of consensus around.

可以真正达成某种共识的立场。

And then you look at, OK,

然后你看，好吧，

now that we know what the optimal answer is,

既然我们知道最佳答案是什么，

does this fit in with both where people are

这是否既符合人们的现状，

and where people are willing to go?

也符合人们的愿景？

And, you know, does it fit into the rest of what we're doing?

而且它适合我们正在做的其余工作吗？

Because, you know, you could have the absolute right answer

因为，你知道，你可以对某件事

for something that is, yes, the absolute intellectually,

给出绝对正确的答案，是的，从智力，

academically, best solution for a given problem.

学术上讲，能给出绝对是 给定问题的最佳解决方案。

But if you look at it and say,

但是，如果你看着然后说，

but Canadians won't be able to support it,

但加拿大人民不可能支持，

it's too much of a step, it's too much of a leap,

这一步跨的太大了。

then can you figure out a half-measure that nudges us in the right direction?

那么你能想出一个半途而废的措施 来推动我们朝着正确的方向前进吗？

So next year or next mandate or next leader

因此，明年或下任期、下一任领导人

or next prime minister can complete that work.

或下一任总理都可以完成这项工作。

And that's the art of the possible.

这就是可能性的艺术。

One of my favorite prime ministers,

除了我父亲，我最喜欢的总理之一

other than my dad, was Wilfrid Laurier.

是威尔弗里德·劳里尔。

He was turn of the century.

他是世纪之交。

He was a French Canadian, our first French Canadian prime minister

他是一位加拿大法裔总理，是 我们的第一位法裔加拿大总理，

ruling over a majority English Canada.

统治占多数的英属加拿大人。

And he understood the need not to just anchor in your own identity

而且他明白，不必只扎根于自己的身份

and be unflinching on it.

并坚定不移地坚持下去。

But that political courage actually sometimes involves

但是，这种政治勇气有时甚至包括妥协

and usually involves compromise and putting water in your wine

和往酒中注水，

and finding common ground

找到共同点

and bringing together a cohesive vision that we can all get behind,

汇集一个我们都可以支持的凝聚力愿景

even if it's not optimal for either side.

即使这对任何一方都不是最佳。

And that idea

而试图找到最佳途径

of trying to find the best way to come together in our differences,

来弥合我们的分歧，

to agree on a path forward,

就前进的道路达成共识的想法

continues to be the elusive goal of Canadian politics.

仍然是加拿大政治难以实现的目标。

AG: That's a nice challenge, actually, to rethink compromise.

格兰特：实际上，重新考虑妥协 是一个不错的挑战。

I've long been allergic to it

我早就对它过敏了，

because it seems like both people are leaving unhappy.

因为看起来两边都不开心，

But I think what you're saying is that you actually care

但我认为你的意思是，你实际上也

about the other person's happiness, too.

在乎对方的幸福。

JT: Well, politics shouldn't be win-lose because fundamentally,

特鲁多：嗯，政治不应该是输赢的， 因为从根本上讲，

we all sort of agree on the same things.

我们在相同的事情上都有共识。

People should have good jobs and give meaning to their lives.

人们应该有好工作，为生活赋予意义。

They should have opportunities to advance.

他们应该有机会前进。

They should have a clean environment.

他们应该有一个干净的环境。

Everyone should have a chance to succeed.

每个人都应该有机会取得成功。

We should be, you know, not at war with neighbors

你知道，我们不应该与邻居

or people on the other side of the world.

或世界另一端的人交战。

Everyone sort of knows what the ideals are.

每个人都知道理想是什么。

Lots of disagreements about how to best organize ourselves to get there.

在如何最好地组织 自己实现目标方面存在很多分歧。

But the more you can get down to those basic principles

但是，你越能了解这些基本原则：

of let's try and figure this out together,

让我们一起努力解决这个问题，

and can we find a way that nudges us forward in a meaningful way,

我们能否找到一种有意义的方式 推动我们向前迈进的方法，

well, that does require finding that middle ground,

嗯，这确实需要找到中间立场，

that common ground.

那个共同点。

AG: I feel like most of the time we get asked,

格兰特：我觉得大多数时候 我们会被问到，

what's the advice you would give to your younger self?

你会给年轻的自己什么建议？

But I want to flip the question and say,

但我想换个问题说，

if you can give advice to Prime Minister Trudeau

如果你能在一年或十年后

a year or a decade down the road,

向特鲁多总理提供建议，

what guidance would you give to the wiser, older version of you?

你会为更聪明、更年迈的你 提供什么指导？

JT: Be ...

特鲁多：对...

Be patient with yourself.

对自己要有耐心。

Allow that sometimes it takes time to get to the right answer.

允许有时候得出正确的答案需要时间。

And "perfect is the enemy of the good"

而 “完美是善良的敌人” 作为一项原则

matters as a principle.

很重要。

That taking meaningful steps forward

向前迈出有意义的步骤

are sometimes more transformative and lasting

有时比试图同时改变 一切

than trying to change everything all at once.

更具变革性和持久性。

AG: Thank you.

格兰特：谢谢。

JT: What a great conversation, thank you, Adam.

特鲁多：真是一次精彩的谈话， 谢谢你，亚当。