How Great Leaders Take On Uncertainty | Anjali Sud and Stephanie Mehta | TED

翻译人员: Jacky He 校对人员: Yip Yan Yeung

Stephanie Mehta: Welcome, Anjali.

斯蒂芬妮·梅塔 (Stephanie Mehta) ：欢迎你，安贾莉，

I'm so glad you're here with us today.

很高兴你今天能来到这里。

Anjali Sud: Thank you, it is great to be here.

安贾莉·苏德 (Anjali Sud) ： 谢谢你，很高兴来到现场。

SM: At Vimeo, you lead a workforce of 1,300 people worldwide --

梅塔：你领导着 Vimeo 平台 全球超 1,300 人的工作团队，

you have creatives, you have finance people,

包括艺术设计、财务

you have technologists.

和技术专家。

So I'm going to start with a really easy question:

我从一个非常简单的问题开始，

what was it like to manage this diverse workforce

带领着这个多元化的团队

through a global pandemic, a racial reckoning

扛过全球疫情、种族风波 到匆忙恢复线下办公

and a very fraught return to office?

是怎样的经历？

AS: Oh, it was a breeze, Stephanie.

苏德：斯蒂芬妮， 这完全不需要操心——

No, it was really challenging.

其实是非常有挑战性的。

You know, I think the only constant has been change.

我觉得这段时间唯独不缺变化。

And as a leader,

而作为领导，

you obviously -- you have a workforce that’s looking for certainty,

显然，你的工作团队 是追求确定性的，

and they're looking to control what's happening around them.

职员们会尝试掌握他们 周围发生的事。

And I think what we all found, as leaders,

我觉得，我们作为领导者 都发现了一件事——

no matter what company you were ... responsible for,

不论你管理什么样的公司，

was that you couldn't offer certainty,

你都无法确保稳定，

and you couldn't always control the environment and the things around you.

也无法一直决定你周围的环境事物。

And so, you know, for me, it was really about agility.

所以，你懂得，对我来说， 这关乎敏捷性。

How do we stay flexible as a team?

我们整个团队怎样保持灵活？

How do we communicate in real time and keep people informed

我们如何进行实时交流，

并在探讨方案时 告知同事最新消息？

as we try and move through things?

And then, also just how do we lead with more humanity?

以及，我们怎么做到人性化的管理？

You know, for Vimeo,

我在过去的几年里从 Vimeo

one of the things I’ve really learned over the last few years is

切实学到的事情之一

we each experience the world so differently.

是我们各自对世界的认识大相径庭。

We have employees who are remote.

我们有远程办公的雇员。

We have an incredible team in Ukraine ...

我们在乌克兰 有一支非同寻常的团队，

employees who are on the front lines, who are literally at war.

正在上前线、 真正处于战争之中的员工。

On the other hand, you have people in different parts of the world

另一方面，也有世界各地 正在经受心理危机

who are experiencing mental-health challenges or burnout,

或者精力消竭的员工。

and so I think it was really just -- the hardest part

所以我认为这是最困难的：

was not being able to give everyone certainty,

没办法给每个人指明确切的方向，

not being able to just apply a one-size-fits-all rule for everyone.

无法制定一条适用于所有人的规则。

But I ultimately think it forced us, as a company, to build more trust,

但我觉得这最终使得 整个公司营造出更多的信任，

because to be agile and flexible, and to lead with humanity,

因为想要灵活、动态、 人性化地管理，

you have to trust each other.

必须互相信任。

And so, I’m sort of optimistic that actually we’re emerging from this time

所以，我很高兴能看到我们

能从如今的境况中 收获愈加灵活、敏捷

with a culture that is more flexible and nimble,

and also, hopefully, has more trust.

和更多信任的企业文化。

SM: Can you give an example of something that you put into place,

梅塔：你能列举一项

你在疫情期间采取的措施，

perhaps during the pandemic,

可以是为了增强沟通或者建立信任，

to enhance communications or build trust

or create a greater sense of community

或者是营造更为浓厚的社区氛围，

or even to communicate that there is no certainty,

甚至是阐明 确定性是不可能存在的，

that is a muscle that you think you'll continue to use in the organization

而且是一些你觉得

会继续在公司内部沿用的有力措施？

far into the future?

AS: There's a couple of things that we did.

苏德：我们做了几件事。

One -- and we are a video platform,

首先——我们本身是视频平台，

so I obviously have to talk about video, but I mean this sincerely --

所以我必然要谈到视频， 但我真是这个意思——

one of the hardest parts, when you're all sort of disparate,

最难的环节之一， 是当你们彼此分离的时候，

is you lose context and you lose nuance

你在沟通的时候会丢失情景

when you communicate.

与细节信息。

And we did make a concerted effort to move away from email and chat,

而我们也共同努力以尽可能地

摆脱电子邮件、聊天功能 这类文字交流，

text-based communication,

as much as possible,

and actually try, particularly for our leadership team,

并尽力尝试， 特别是我们管理团队，

when we were communicating,

在我们沟通时

to do it with your face, and your hands and your body

加上面部表情、手势、身体动作

and your emotions.

和情感。

And we did that through live streaming a lot of communications,

而我们通过大量实时连线，

recording a lot of videos.

录制很多视频达成了这一目标。

We sent asynchronous video messages.

我们还发给对方视频消息。

So I send ... I record my screen and just send a note out to people.

我会录屏然后 附上一条留言发给其他人。

Every new hire does a video to welcome and introduce themselves.

每位新员工都会录制 一段介绍自己的视频。

A lot of our meetings

我们将很多会议

we’ve actually replaced with just quick video presentations.

替换成短时的视频演讲。

And actually, what that really did

其实，这真正的效果

was allow the humanity and the context to come through

是让人性和情景传达出来，

and I think that helped us a lot to, kind of, stay close.

我认为这使我们拉近了距离。

So that was one, I think, really important thing.

这是我认为很重要的一点。

Another important thing is, I think, just creating mechanisms

另一个重要的点是

在事情行不通时建立新的机制，

to make it easier to talk about when things aren't working,

because a critical part of being agile

因为保持灵活的核心一环

is recognizing we have an area that isn’t working.

是承认我们有不如人意之处。

And so one of the things that we do at Vimeo is we try --

我们在 Vimeo 干的事情之一是去尝试——

I do this in all of my town halls, we do it in a lot of meetings --

我们在所有集体会议中 都是这么做的——

is always talk about what's working, what are our top three things,

探讨那些收效不错、 排在前三的，

and what isn't working -- yet.

还有目前还没解决的事项。

And we've kind of created, I think,

而我们差不多形成了

a framework that sort of takes the stigma away

一个让讨论效果不好的事项

from talking about what's not working.

不再是负累的框架。

And when you make that normalized and comfortable for people,

当此类讨论对于同事来说 变得自然、稀松平常，

I feel like it's allowed us to be more open, as an organization,

我便觉得，我们整个公司关于 需要改变什么、调整什么

about what do we need to change, what do we need to pivot.

会更具开放性。

And both of those, being more video-first in our communication

而这两者—— 在沟通中优先采用视频的方式

and being more transparent and normalizing what's not working,

和让问题分析 更为透明、常态化，

I think has been really helpful,

我觉得是极为有效的，

and certainly something we’re carrying forward.

也是我们将延续的。

SM: I love that advice about being video-first.

梅塔：我喜欢这个视频优先的建议。

So many of our members of our workforce live in a video world.

我们的很多职员都对视频习以为常。

They're used to video as a means of communication.

他们习惯把视频作为交流方式，

Which brings me to my next question.

这就引出了我的下一个问题：

You've talked about how the organization has changed.

你谈到了公司发生了什么变化。

How do you see the workforce changing?

那么你怎么看待员工的变化？

What is different with the young millennials,

对于年轻的 80 后到现在

and even, now, the first wave of Gen Z coming into the workplace?

已经初入职场的 00 后而言 有什么不同？

AS: I think it's incredibly different.

苏德：我认为这差异巨大。

And, you know, one of the things that we think about at Vimeo a lot is

我们在 Vimeo 经常想到的一件事是

a lot of the mechanisms and communication modes

我们如今运用的大部分 交流模式和机制

that we still use today,

已十分过时。

they're really antiquated.

They were designed for a totally different environment

它们是为一个完全不同的环境

and a totally different generation.

和一代人设计的。

But I see a lot of differences.

我看到了很多不同之处。

One of them, I think, is the line between your personal life and work life

其一是私人生活与工作的界限

is definitely blending. ...

毋庸置疑变得越来越模糊。

If you think about your personal life -- look at TikTok.

考虑你的私人生活时—— 分析下 TikTok。

This generation is used to consuming content, learning, engaging,

这一代人习惯用一种特定的方式

接受内容、学习、参与。

in a very specific way.

And if they then have to come to work and to be trained on a job,

那他们是不是还得在岗位培训时

read a 300-page manual?

阅读一本 300 多页的手册？

Like, it's not going to happen, right?

这是不可能的，对吧？

Or if you miss the meeting,

比如你未参加会议，

and you have to watch the Zoom recording of a three-hour meeting --

而你得回看一场三小时 会议的 Zoom 录像，

that’s just not going to happen.

这也不太现实。

And so I think that there is definitely sort of this --

所以我觉得肯定有这类——

you know, we talk about the “consumerization of enterprise.”

我们谈到“企业消费化”，

Those are just fancy words

这只是高大上的词语

for saying the way ... we communicate and interact in our personal lives

来表述我们 个人生活中的交流互动

is going to translate to work.

会转化到工作内。

And so I definitely think that's an area of opportunity.

我认为这块领域绝对充满机遇。

The other thing I see from sort of the generation,

还有一个我从这一代，

the newest generation coming into the workforce,

最新步入职场的这一代人身上 得出的观察：

is sort of, of course mission-driven,

他们当然是目标驱使的，

but I think there's a desire to really understand

但我认为还有一种真正去理解

the “why” behind things.

事情背后“为什么”的渴求。

And one of our communication mantras

我们的沟通规矩之一

is we never talk about the “what” without the “why.”

是我们从不忽略原因只谈结果。

And I think there’s a desire to -- the idea that, well, there’s a hierarchy,

还有一类倾向—— 这个对于阶级关系，

or “My boss told me that this is what we’re going to do” or --

或者“我的老板告诉我 这是我们该做的”，等等

that, I think, is increasingly moving away,

这代人逐渐抛弃的想法，

and people, they don’t just want to do something

员工不想只是拥有权威的人

because someone with formal authority told them to do it.

指挥他们去做什么，

They want to do it because they understand why it matters,

他们更想知道任务的意义后再去做，

why it ties to the mission.

知道这个任务 和最终目标之间的联系。

And I think that that forces leaders to really bring more of the “why”

我也觉得这驱使着 领导把更多“为什么”

into how we communicate and motivate people.

加进与人交流和激励性的环节。

So those are two of the things I see,

以上是我看到的两件事。

and then, you know, the third I think is just flexibility.

第三个我觉得是灵活度。

I think -- and this is true of all of us,

我认为这对我们所有人皆是如此，

but particularly the younger generation -- I think they’re looking for flexibility

但特别是年轻一代， 他们正在寻求弹性，

and they want options and choices.

他们需要选择的余地。

And it's not always easy and feasible to provide ultimate flexibility,

提供绝对的弹性并不切实可行，

but this is where I try and orient it more to agility.

于是我便在敏捷度上下功夫。

How can we have approaches and principles

我们怎样能基于原则和方式

and be committed to things,

并身心投入，

but also know when to question, and when to actually pivot?

但同时也清楚什么时候 提出质疑，什么时候调整策略？

SM: Yeah.

梅塔：嗯。

Anjali, can you share a few examples

安贾莉，你能分享几个例子，关于

of ways that you at Vimeo have tried to really be proactive

你们在 Vimeo 为了在处理或理解

when it comes to addressing or understanding

新一代员工的需求，

what your next generation of employees are going to want,

不论是追求，还是利益，

either in terms of purpose or in terms of benefits

或是灵活度方面

or in terms of flexibility?

变得更为主动而做过的尝试吗？

Are there programs or processes you've put in place

你有没有推动过一些项目或流程

that really speak to this big sea change

真正对员工的价值产生了

we're seeing in terms of values from the workforce?

巨大影响？

AS: Firstly, of course, it's all about listening, right?

苏德：首先，显然的， 一切都和倾听有关，对吧？

And I think, like many organizations,

我觉得，像许多组织一样，

the way we've tried to listen and understand our workforce

我们试图倾听、了解员工的方式

is very similar: it’s Q and As and engagement surveys,

是十分相似的， 通过问答和参与度调研，

and things like that.

诸如此类的。

And some of the things that we've done,

我们的成果包括

we have a people and culture NPS, net promoter score,

我们创建了 员工和文化 NPS（净推荐值）

the same way we have for our users, for our internal teams.

将用于用户的 NPS 应用于我们的内部团队。

But I would say one of the things that we've really tried to do

但我觉得我们确实花费气力尝试的

is appreciate that when we get inputs from our employees, 1,300 employees ...

是认识到当我们收到来自 多达 1,300 名员工的答复，

you can’t look at the averages.

你不能只看平均值，

You can’t look at it all in totality

不能整体而论，

and try and pull out an obvious "Oh, this is how everybody's feeling."

并得出一个清晰的结论， “噢，这是大家的感受。”

Because what you actually -- when you really dig into it

因为实际上， 当你真正深入研究、

and truly listen and do focus groups and talk to people --

倾听、小组访谈并与人交谈——

what you’ll find is actually

你会发现，实际上，

there's very different experiences and desires among your employees.

员工群体之中的经历 和需求差异很大。

And so, I think for us, what we've really just tried to do

所以我觉得对我们来说， 我们真正要尝试做的

is have a bunch of different listening mechanisms

是利用几种不同的聆听方式，

and then resist the urge to conveniently pull, like,

并切忌这么简单地做总结，

"Oh, this is what everyone's feeling, let's just do this thing as the action."

“噢，这就是所有人的感受， 我们采取这个行动吧。”

And it's hard, and we're still kind of figuring it out,

所以这挺难的， 我们也在尝试完善它，

but I will tell you, some of the things that we've heard from employees

但我可以这样告诉你，我们 从员工那儿得到的一些反馈

have changed our approach to hybrid work or travel

改变了我们 对混合办公和差旅的规定，

or even things like our approach to compensation

甚至是像我们的补偿规则

or our approach to DE and I.

和我们对多样性、 包容和平等的政策等等。

So I think it's more just like I said,

如我所说，

that agile listening, constantly really understanding what’s happening,

灵活地吸纳意见，持续地 真正理解发生的情况，

but not treating everything as, like, an average or the same.

不要把每个人看作是 中间值或趋同的。

And for us, it’s been particularly stark

对我们来说，这尤其明显，

because we have offices and teams in so many different countries

因为我们在这么多国家 有着办公室和团队，

and the differences, they’re substantial.

差别是不可小觑的。

They're really substantial,

我们处理不同事物的方式

about the way we solve different things.

差别显著。

And we used to have a very, sort of, "One Vimeo" global approach

我们曾经以公平一致的名义

制定了全球 “同一个 Vimeo”战略，

in the name of consistency and fairness,

and what we found is we have to be more localized.

但我们后来意识到 得有地区性的分化。

We really do. We have to design mechanisms to support our teams

我们的确需要。 我们必须设计机制

in a very different way,

区别服务我们的团队，

because their experiences and the world around them

因为他们的经历和身边的环境

is quite different.

是截然不同的。

So I think that's definitely been one,

这肯定是一块，

and I will tell you, it has involved a lot of --

我也会告诉你， 它涉及到很多——

as an executive team and leadership team --

作为高级行政和管理团队——

it's involved a lot of trying things,

它涉及大量的尝试，

it not working,

碰到阻碍，

and changing them.

并解决它们。

And a great example is our Q and A.

一个很好的例子是我们的问答。

I feel like every leader I know

我感觉我认识的每一位领导

has a perspective on whether they do open Q and A

都对于选择开放性问答、 匿名问答和实时问答

or anonymous Q and A, or real-time Q and A.

有自己的逻辑。

We've changed our approach there multiple times,

我们改变了很多个方式，

and I know we will again,

我们之后还会的，

because we're still figuring out the right way to listen

因为我们还在研究 聆听的正确方式，

and have a dialogue with a very diverse workforce.

与多元化的团队沟通的方式。

SM: I want to stay on newcomers to the workplace for just another moment,

梅塔：我想再聊一聊 新入职员工这个话题上，

because another thing I hear from CEOs of my generation and older

因为我从我那一代和 更早的 CEO 所了解到的

is a concern about making sure

是确保我们不仅为最年轻的雇员

that we are not just providing our youngest employees

带去弹性与成就感，

with the flexibility and the purpose that they need,

还有历练与智慧；

but also the training and the wisdom

这些通常是与师父

that comes, oftentimes, from being in close proximity to a mentor

或担任了这项职务许多年的老员工的

or to somebody who's done the job for many more years.

密切交流学习中得来的。

What is your philosophy and take

你对于这种经验传授持什么看法，

on making sure that knowledge transfer is happening?

又如何让它进行下去？

AS: I think it's a major challenge

苏德：我觉得

大家不一定知道该如何 应对这项艰巨的挑战。

that I don’t know that everyone will sort of have a solution for.

I think about that all the time.

我一直在考虑这个问题。

We have a very distributed workforce at Vimeo.

Vimeo 拥有 背景很多元化的员工群体。

We have people in over eight countries.

我们在超过八个国家有员工。

My executive team is entirely distributed.

我的管理团队也是四散在各地的。

So I've really realized the benefits

我真切感受到了

of being able to have a distributed workforce

遍布全球的员工群体、

and being able to attract talent and just be more inclusive.

吸引人才和提高包容性 带来的好处；

On the flip side, there's definitely, I think,

另一方面， 我觉得肯定存在

a lack of the same kinds of learning opportunities and mentorship,

以往学习提升和从师机会的缺乏，

particularly for the youngest folks that are entering the workforce.

特别是对于步入职场 不久的年轻职员。

So I think it's a challenge.

我认为这是个挑战。

One of the approaches that we've been taking,

我们所采取的方法之一，

and what's sort of nice, is we're modeling it at the top.

也挺巧妙的，是从顶部培训。

So if my entire executive team is distributed,

我的整个执行团队既然是分散的，

that means I have to learn how to provide real-time feedback,

我就得学会如何为新一班刚刚加入的

mentorship and development for a whole set of new executives

高管提供实时的反馈、指导和发展。

who have just joined.

We have sort of changed up the executive team

我们在过去几乎整整一年里

almost entirely in the last twelve months.

对管理团队做了变动。

So I’ve had to deal with the same challenges.

我也得解决类似的挑战。

And we’ve had to literally -- we call it our operating system --

我们实际上——我们把它 称为我们的“操作系统”——

we’ve had to design an operating system, as an executive team,

我们作为管理团队 还得设计一个操作系统，

for how we’re going to work together in that environment.

以规定我们在此环境下怎么合作。

How do we share real-time feedback?

我们怎么共享实时反馈？

How do we create the right communication loops?

我们如何设立合适的沟通闭环？

And so I think, from my perspective,

我认为，从我的角度而言，

it’s more we have to be able to do it ourselves and model it

我们需要自己去尝试和调整，

and then, I think it's a more proven mechanism

我觉得这才会是对年轻人来说

for young people.

更有效的机制。

I will say, like many companies ...

我的观点是，像许多公司一样，

I do believe that in-person collaboration is really important for learning.

我深信面对面合作 对于学习的重要性。

We do have -- we bring people into an office.

我们让员工进到办公室。

If you're remote, we ask folks to come in

我们要求远程办公的那些同事

and spend time in a room with their team,

与团队共处一室、

do social activities, all of those things.

进行社交活动等等。

I don't think they will go away,

我不觉得他们会离开，

nor do I think they should.

也不认为他们应该离开。

But, you know, candidly,

但坦白地说，

it’s an area that I don’t think we’ve really figured out perfectly

这是个我认为 我们还没有搞明白的方面，

and I think it's really critical that as leaders, we do that,

我也觉得我们领导这么做很关键，

so that this next generation is able to get

以便新一代能够获得

the same growth opportunities that we all had.

像我们那时的成长机会。

SM: Well, and it's interesting --

梅塔：嗯，这挺有趣——

the tools that you mentioned at the very beginning

你在谈话一上来提到的

of our conversation, around video,

视频的辅助

can be really helpful there.

会是很有帮助的。

I've heard of a number of organizations

我了解到很多组织

that have really encouraged their young people to present,

鼓励他们的年轻人去演讲，

as a way of having to go out and find the information they need.

作为一种出去寻找 他们所需信息的方式。

And then, because we have video tools available to us now,

而且，由于我们现在 有了视频工具的辅助，

you know, they have an opportunity to share their ideas

于是他们就有机会与一大群人

with a large group of people,

分享见解，

but first, kind of going through the fact-finding and the research,

但之前得有研究与数据搜集，

and then sharing their ideas.

再去分享想法。

In an earlier comment, you talked a little bit about mental illness

在之前的评论中， 你谈到一些精神疾病，

and the different things that people are bringing to work,

还有人们带去工作的那些问题，

whether it is, you know, exhaustion, burnout.

无论是什么， 如精疲力竭、负担过重。

During the Black Lives Matter protests,

在“黑人的命也是命”的 抗议活动中，

we had a lot of people coming to the office

很多人来到办公室，

feeling trauma,

感到内心受到创伤，

and feeling really personal issues bubble to the surface.

觉得非常私人的问题被公之于众。

I'm wondering if you can share a little bit about how you deal

我在想你是否可以 分享一下你是怎么处理

with this increasing personal --

越来越多私人的——

you know, when people bring their whole selves to the office,

当人们来到办公室， 思绪毫无保留，

which we encourage,

这我们是鼓励的，

sometimes, they bring things, parts of themselves that are challenging.

但有时随之而来的棘手的事情。

AS: Yeah ... I’ve always thought the responsibility of a leader

苏德：对......我一直认为 领导者的责任

is to empower people to do their best work

是发动员工做到最好，

and the responsibility of a company is to empower our people

而公司的责任就是让员工

to do their best work.

发挥出最佳水平。

And so, of course, we have a real role to play

显而易见，我们 在缓解心理问题

in supporting things like mental-health issues or burnout.

和精力消竭方面作用很大。

And, you know, the way I think, like many companies,

而且，我像其他许多公司那样，

the way we initially probably sought to do that

我们最初尝试去做的更像是

was more, you know, you're seeing a problem and you're reacting

发现问题之后，

通过提供心理健康资源、支持

by trying to provide mental-health resources

或者批准假期处理这个问题。

or support or time off.

And, I think -- and empathy,

还有是......同理心，

just empathy.

同情心本身。

I think that's really important.

我认为这非常重要。

And I always say, to so many of our managers ...

我总是说，对于我们 那么多的经理，

just care.

付出关心。

If we just care, a lot of things get easier.

只要我们付出关心， 很多事情会变得简单。

You don’t have to design a hundred mechanisms

如果你把合适的员工 放到受到关注的职位，

if you just have the right people in place who care.

就不需要设计百来项机制。

At the same time, I will say

同时，我得说，

what we’re realizing now, in sort of this next phase,

我们在这种新阶段正在实现的，

is that that’s a reactive approach

是一种响应模式，

and actually the root cause -- that we can control at Vimeo --

而实际上我们在 Vimeo 调控的是根本因素，

the root cause of a lot of stress and burnout

许多压力和力竭的根源

is sometimes people either don’t have enough ... focus,

要么是人们没有重点，

we’re asking people to do too many things

即我们派给他们的任务太杂，

or they don't feel like they're supported in doing those things.

或是他们在完成任务时 不觉得受到了支持。

And that, I think, is actually where we should be spending more time --

我觉得我们真正应该 花更多时间去解决的，

is how do we actually set the right prioritization and focus.

是如何安排合适的优先级 和设立目标。

There's some issue there, right?

这里面有些问题，对吧？

There's a root cause there

其中存在一个根本问题；

that's a "Oh, I feel like I'm stressed because there's too much going on.

“噢，我备感压力， 因为要处理很多事情，

I don't feel equipped to solve it."

而我没有能力解决它。”

Then, we should get into the "What is the detail there,

之后，我们应该讨论， “详情是什么，

and do we need to do things differently?"

我们需要调整做事的方法吗？”

And, you know, one of our themes at Vimeo this year

你也知道，我们今年 Vimeo 的主题之一

was "Do less, better."

是“事半功倍”。

SM: As the economy starts to, maybe, move sideways,

梅塔：随着经济开始横向发展，

do you think that there are going to be stakeholders who say, you know,

你认为股东会有此类意见吗，

"Out with all of this touchy-feely,

比如“别搞这些腻歪的、

the workplace-as-a-family stuff.

把同事看作大家庭的东西。

Where are my results?"

我要的成果呢？”

AS: Absolutely. I think the pendulum has already swung pretty clearly.

苏德：当然了。我觉得 这类趋势已经十分明显了。

I mean, I work in SAS, software as a service,

我的工作领域是 SaaS，即软件服务，

so we already went from "growth at all cost"

所以我们早已从“不惜代价的增长”

to "profitability," you know, pendulum swing.

转向“收益率”，大势所趋。

My perspective on this -- and it hasn't changed --

我对此的看法，未曾改变过：

I think the best leaders and cultures

最优秀的领导和文化

deliver results and treat people well.

拿出成果的同时待人以仁。

And I actually think, if you treat people well,

而且我认为，如果你带着关怀

with kindness and empathy,

与同理心善待员工，

you will get better results.

你会得到更佳的成果。

And so, you know, for me,

对我来说，

I think what I observed over the last few years is --

我在过去的几年里观察到的，

that part, I think, hasn't changed and shouldn't change.

是这一点没有改变， 也没有理由改变。

There were, I think, a lot of times

我觉得，有很多情形，

when companies, we did things because maybe it was lip service

我们会在公司里因为 只需要动动嘴皮子或受到压力

or we felt pressured.

而去做某些事。

And that's not going to be sustainable.

这是不可持续的。

But that’s not what -- ultimately, that’s not what people need, in any case.

说到底这也不是人们需要的。

So, you know, I sort of see it as --

那么，我的理解是

the way you channel how you are caring towards your employees

你把内在的关心与同情

and how you are empathetic,

传达给雇员，

always should be in service of helping people do their best work,

应该一直这样， 以帮助员工发挥出最佳水平，

which will deliver results, which will be good for the bottom line.

这能够产出成果， 整体来看也有益处。

And you have to believe that. You have to be committed to that

你必须相信这一点。 你必须致力于它，

and if you use that consistently in your decision-making,

而如果你决策时一直如此，

it should not be a trade-off.

它就不应该是 需要你来权衡的事情。

These are not mutually exclusive things.

这些行为并非互不相容的。

SM: Anjali, how have you been taking care of yourself

梅塔：安贾莉，你最近在这段

during this period of tremendous turmoil and change,

混乱、动荡以及成长的日子里

but also growth?

是如何照顾好你自己的呢？

You mentioned you just had a baby.

你提到你刚刚生了一个孩子。

There's a lot on your shoulders.

你的负担挺重。

How, as a leader, do you practice some self-care

那么，作为领导， 你怎么自我关怀，

or how do you make sure that you're getting the balance you need

你怎么确保你能维持足够的平衡，

to be the most effective leader you can be?

在领导职务上达到最高的效率？

AS: I think --

苏德：我看来......

recently, the phrase I use a lot to myself

最近，我经常自己惦记这句话，

is “two things can be true, both can be true.”

“两件事都能成立”、 “双双成立”。

I say this a lot. And for me, I think of it as, like,

我经常这样自勉。 而对我来说，我觉得是，

"This job is hard, and it's gotten harder."

“这是个很难的工作 而且只会变得更难。”

We went public at the height of the pandemic

我们在疫情顶峰期间上市，

and last year, market volatility has been tremendous.

而去年的市场波动巨大。

You know, we're obviously going through a ton with post-pandemic,

我们在疫情后处理了无数事情，

we have a team in Ukraine going through a war --

我们在乌克兰的团队经受战争——

all these things that have happened.

还发生了各种各样的事。

And so, it's a hard job,

这是一份辛苦的工作，

and it's an incredibly privileged job.

但也是一份极为幸运的工作。

It's a gift, right?

一种眷顾，不是吗？

And so, I think for me,

对我来说，

it’s sort of acknowledging both of those things has helped me a lot.

自己认识到这两件事 对我帮助很大。

The way I’ve tried to kind of lead, has been -- it’s always been this way,

我尝试领导的风格， 这从来是......一直是这样的，

which is, for me, it's I have to have passion.

在我看来，要有激情，

I have to have passion.

必须得有激情。

I have to believe so deeply that what Vimeo is doing is important

我需要深切相信 Vimeo 所做的对于世界

and matters for the world.

有意义，也重要。

And if I have passion, I have energy

如果我有激情，我就有精力，

and then I will -- I can kind of move through anything.

那我就差不多可以解决任何事。

I have to find joy in my team.

我得在我的团队中找到快乐。

I feel like, especially in hard times,

我觉得，尤其是在困难时期，

I look back at my career

我回顾我的职业生涯，

and actually, some of my most fulfilling times in work

发现我最具成就感的工作时光

were when -- in the hardest business situations.

是在最艰难的商业环境中。

But it’s because it brought a group of people together

它让一群人走到一起，

all on one team,

形成一个团队。

and so I think that's been, you know, a really big part of it.

我觉得这是很重要的部分。

And then, yeah, like, you have to be a little selfish sometimes,

还有，是的，有时你得自私些，

and take care of yourself.

照顾好你自己。

And I am really fortunate.

而我十分幸运。

I think I have a great support network around me

我觉得我身边有很多人 给了我坚实的支持，

and I do ...

我......

My husband and I have a deal,

我和我老公有个约定，

where on Sundays, I disappear for a couple of hours.

每周日我都会离开几个小时。

I just disappear

我会消失，

and I walk around the city and I listen to my music

在城市里走来走去， 听我的音乐，

and do whatever I need to do,

做任何我要做的事，

and that's really important.

这很重要的。

SM: So you talked about how hybrid work

梅塔：那么你谈到了混合办公模式

is going to look very different in the future

在未来较我们今天的定义

than how we describe it today.

会非常不同。

It's basically in office a couple of days, work from home a couple of other days.

本质上是去办公室几天， 剩下几天在家办公。

Tell us a little bit more

再跟我们讲讲

about what you could potentially see that evolving into.

在你看来这会演变成什么样子？

AS: I think the idea of an office as a time and place

苏德：我认为办公室所带的 时间和空间的概念

completely goes away.

会彻底消失。

And I think it’s really going to be

我认为很有可能会发展成

people are going to want to work from anywhere, anywhere in the world.

人们会要求在世界任何地方工作。

Even the concept of where you’re located is going to change.

甚至你的实际位置 这个概念也会消失。

And then the idea of like “I’m going to work on this time zone”

还有这样的想法： “我要在这个时区工作”，

or “I’m going to attend this meeting that’s scheduled on this date” --

和“我要参加这一天 安排的这次会议”，

I think that’s going to go away.

我认为这些都会消失。

And I think what you're going to find

你会发现

is more and more work, particularly from knowledge workers,

越来越多的工作， 尤其是知识工作者的工作，

is going to be done anywhere, anytime.

能在任何时间、地点来完成。

Communication and collaboration will happen asynchronously

我们会进行不同步的沟通和协作，

and we will be using tools and technology --

而我们将能够利用工具和科技，

whether it's video, whether it's AI --

不论是视频，还是 AI，

to basically enable that at scale

使得这能以全球的规模，

among many people, anywhere in the world.

供世界各地的人共同合作交流。

And then I think leadership, leaders are going to look different.

我认为领导力、领导会发生改变。

Because I think it's going to require --

因为我觉得它会要求——

if you think about the skill set to be a global CEO 30 years ago

如果你比较 30 年前和现在

versus what that will require now --

成为跨国企业 CEO 所需的技能——

I think in the future ... the skill set is going to be like,

我猜，在未来...... 技能要求会是，

"How do you communicate with diverse, global audiences

“你是如何和跨时区的

and employees across time zones

多元、全球的用户与员工

in a way that is effective,

通过有效的方式沟通的，

that provides context and alignment at scale?

同时在整体上提供背景信息、 保证信息一致？

How do you organize programs,

你如何策划项目，

whether it’s compensation, whether it’s, you know, training?”

无论是补偿，还是培训？”

All of that is going to look very different.

这些都会发生改变。

But I think the ultimate thing you’ll see is just ...

但最终会是......

there were these constraints that we’ve lived with,

我们生活带来的限制，

whether it was time or place or budget, in some cases.

不论是时间、地点，也许是预算，

And I think those constraints are going to go away.

我认为这些约束是会自然消散的。

And the promise is that if we are flexible and smart

愿景是如果我们灵活、智慧，

and we use technology in the right way,

并合理地利用科技，

that we'll actually come away

我们就会创造

a much more evolved and efficient workforce.

一个更加先进高效的员工群体。

SM: Well, I think you just showed us some of the passion

梅塔：嗯，你刚刚就向我们展现了

that you've talked about as being the thing that gives you energy

一种使你能够领导

全球 1,300 人的公司的激情。

to lead that organization of 1,300 people worldwide.

Anjali, thank you so much for being here today.

安贾莉，非常感谢你 今天来到这里。

AS: Thank you. This was great.

苏德：谢谢你， 这很不错。