How I Make Learning English Grammar Fun, Natural and Convenient — PODCAST

most people find grammar boring. Yeah? Um,  honestly, personally, I don't understand why,  

it's so fascinating to understand,  you know, why, you know, the, like,  

the structure of the language, but,  you know, maybe I'm crazy. Yeah? But

So most people don't like studying English grammar  because they find it boring - because it usually  

is, right? Well, in today's episode, Thiago, our  fluency coach, will tell you why he loves learning  

English grammar and finds it an absolutely  fascinating aspect of the language and how you  

can learn it in a fun way. So, Thiago, let's talk  about it. Most people simply don't like studying  

English grammar. You, on the other hand, have told  me you absolutely love it. So can you tell me why? 

Yeah. Yeah, sure. Um, I love grammar.  I've always loved it, mainly because,  

um, I think I am an inquisitive type of  person. Um, I like to understand the why  

of things. So when I was learning English, I  remember that just learning how to say something  

or how to write a sentence, uh, wasn't enough  for me. I really wanted to understand why I was  

supposed to say it thatway or write it that way.  So, um, I understand that maybe not many people,  

or not everybody's wired that way, but in my case,  I am a person who likes to understand the why of  

things. So naturally, that that curiosity of  mine led me to study more grammar, because  

sometimes I will go, I will look at a sentence  and go, okay, I understand the meaning of the  

sentence. I understand the context. I'm supposed  to use this sentence in, but why, why do I use  

this or this word order, for example? Or why do I  use this auxiliary verb here? This don't, or this  

haven't, you know? So naturally that curiosity led  me to study grammar. But the cool thing is that  

as I started to study more and more grammar, I  started to develop this, uh, deeper understanding  

of the language, you know? So, uh, that  really, that was very beneficial to me,  

I would say, to my learning because, um, then,  uh, not only was I using English in speaking it,  

but also I knew what I was doing in the sense  that, okay, I wanna communicate this idea. I'm  

gonna use this structure right now, you know?  So, um, that is one reason I can give, you know,  

this curiosity, this, uh, need to understand why. I, I like the word you used. You said, uh,  

what does it mean to be wired in a particular  way? You said you were, some people are not  

wired in that way. What does that mean? Yeah. It's about your constitution, how  

your maybe how your mind or your brain processes  information. Yeah. Maybe some people, like I said,  

they, they don't need this. They don't need  to understand the why of, you know, of the,  

of language, for example, you know, you just  need to learn how to say what you wanna say,  

and you roll with it, that's fine. Yeah. But  in my case, uh, you know, I am wired a little  

bit differently. I like to understand why I'm  using the things I'm using in English, you know? 

So, so being wired in a particular way  is like your sort of natural way of,  

the way that you process information and the way  that you do things, the way that you behave. So  

yeah, it makes, makes sense in this  context. Absolutely. I agree. Um,  

I think I'm one of those people, the other type  that like might not always, um, think about the  

grammar first. I'm curious to know, like, how did  you get to this point of realizing that this was  

actually working? Like, this way of thinking was  actually benefiting you in your English learning? 

Yeah. I started actually by studying grammar. I  used to have a grammar book, and, I would make it  

a goal to study between 30 minutes to an hour of  grammar every day. And each day I would study a  

different tense or a different structure of the  language. And then the cool thing about grammar  

books I find is that, you know, you have the  explanation of that topic with some examples,  

and then they tell you all the possible situations  you can use that kind of structure. And then after  

you study that page, you can do the exercises to  consolidate what you just studied or read on the  

next page. And the grammar book that I had also  had the answer key in the back. So after that,  

I could check my work to see if I had gotten most  of it correctly or not, you know? So it was a,  

it was geared towards self-studying. Yeah. Uh, but  then, you know, I enjoyed it because it was like,  

um, I like to compartmentalize information too.  Again, going back to the way your brain is wired,  

I like to compartmentalize things. I  think, uh, we did an episode together,  

Casse, where I was talking about that, remember  the, you, you told me about the, the puzzle,  

the puzzle analogy or metaphor, right? Uh,  my brain also works kind of like that. Like,  

you know, first I would categorize the simple  tenses, present, past, future. I would study them  

and then the perfect tenses, you know, present,  past, future, then move on like that to more  

complicated or complex structures. The more, the  cool thing about grammar, I think, is that the  

more you understand it and practice it, the more  automatic speaking and writing become to you.  

Um, so one metaphor I can give here is going to  driving school, you know, learning how to drive.  

Uh, usually, you know, you go to the driving  school, uh, you get your driver's license, but  

you're not really completely ready yet to,  you know, get out there and drive. Like,  

you know, you don't do it so naturally yet, even  though you, you have just got the, the license,  

you still have to think a lot about the mechanics  of driving, right? Like, you know, uh, you gotta  

worry about the steering wheel or the different  pedals, or you gotta adjust the mirrors,  

you know? So usually you pay attention to these  mechanic things first, you know, before it becomes  

natural to you. It's okay, it's part of the  process, but what, what what usually happens is,  

um, after a while, the more you practice driving,  the more you, you get to that point where you  

don't even think about these things anymore. You,  you just drive. Yeah. So it comes to a point where  

you drive naturally, let's say, you don't have to  think about the mechanics of it anymore because  

you've done it so many times. So the same thing  happens with grammar. Maybe at the beginning of  

your journey, or if you're not so experienced  with English yet, you might be thinking more  

about the language or the grammar, you know?  And it feels unnatural a little bit, which is  

supposed to feel unnatural. But if you keep doing  that with time, it becomes second nature to you.  

And then you start using those structures or  speaking English without even thinking about  

it anymore. Because at the end of the day, that's  what we all want, right? We wanna sound automatic,  

effortless, confident in English, and, you know,  ideally not making as many mistakes. It's okay  

to make mistakes, that the important thing is  communication, but also we want to communicate  

to the best of our abilities, yeah, without making  too many mistakes when we speak English, right? 

I, I love this imagery of, of like learning to  drive because there are so many over, you become  

overwhelmed. Like when you think of a car, like  when you first get into the car, it's like, what,  

what does this do? What does that do? You know,  it can be overwhelming. So I think this is a, an  

excellent analogy, like learning to drive is,  it doesn't happen overnight. You really have,  

it takes practice and this is exactly your point,  right? Like it, and I think for those of us who  

are wired differently, I think the, the point here  that you're making is quite nice because it takes,  

it requires effort and it requires time.  Um, you used the word consolidate. Uh,  

what does that mean? I mean, you used it  quite earlier on, but I, I like that word. 

Yeah. We usually use that when talking about  education. And when you're learning something,  

usually first you study the theory of it, right?  Let's say that studying grammar is like reading  

the manual, you know, before, I don't know,  operating a machine or something. So it's the  

theory. Yeah. So first you read about the theory,  you learn the theory, but then you consolidate  

that theory by practicing it, by doing some  exercises, by living your English in this case,  

which is, you know, watching, uh, videos  in English and trying to look for those  

grammar structures you are practicing. Yeah. So  yeah, consolidating is the practice side of it. 

Um, I'd like to ask you as well, like you, you  mentioned some keywords here. You mentioned  

like it becoming automatic and it becoming, you  know, go, going from feeling like it's sort of  

mechanic to being automatic. And isn't it ironic  because these words are also referred to car?  

Um, these are also car words, like in the car,  I mean, like, it's, it's quite interesting,  

like the method. I find it quite  hilarious, like an automatic car.  

Anyway, so I wonder if there's more  about this metaphor that makes sense. 

Yeah, sure. There is, uh, one thing  that, uh, I've noticed is that, uh,  

let's go back to driving, right? Um, usually  when people learn how to drive younger before 18,  

like, you know, in any informal way, maybe, uh,  I don't know, uh, their uncle or their father,  

you know, taught them, or they just learn by  themselves, you know. What usually happens is  

those people, they tend to develop bad habits when  driving. So by the time they go to driving school  

at 18, or, you know, whatever, uh, they carry with  them these, uh, fossilized mistakes or these, uh,  

bad habits. So it becomes more difficult to break  those bad habits. For example, the correct way,  

at least here in Brazil, to drive, is both  hands at the wheel. Why both hands at the  

wheel? Because, you know, if you need to make  a quick turn, you know, like fast, you know,  

you have more control of the car rather than if  you're just driving with one hand, you know? So,  

uh, taking that to English now, I, I have met  many students like that, Actually, I know people  

who were studying English for years already, and  because they didn't have enough grammar work early  

on, or because they didn't pay much attention to  it, they developed these, uh, fossilized mistakes  

we say, these bad habits with the language,  which if you look at it from a communi,  

from a communication standpoint, is okay, because,  you know, we can still understand what they say,  

but they carry with them that mistake. Let me give  you an example. Let's say that a learner is used  

to always saying, uh, he go to school, he go to  school every day, he go to school every day. This  

is, it doesn't interfere with the communication,  because you still understand what I'm saying,  

but the correct way is he goes, right? He goes  to school every day. But if nobody corrects that  

learner, or if that learner never stops to  study the simple present tense in this case,  

that learner after years will get used or will  internalize that mistake and think that it's  

okay. Like, you know, it's not, it's not a  big deal. So the person is gonna keep saying  

he go to school every day, even though it's not  correct. And then when, you know, I have classes  

with a student like that, I notice that it's  much harder to correct that mistake because,  

you know, the person has been making that for  years. So it's harder to break that habit. So,  

um, that is one downside I would say, of not  focusing so much on grammar too, you know,  

um, developing bad habits with  the language, fossilized mistakes. 

Um, I, I was just wondering if like, everyone  knows what a, what fossilized means. Like I know  

that obviously it makes sense in context,  but can you explain what it means when  

something is fossilized? What does that mean? Uh, maybe you can help me with that definition,  

Casse, but I, I view (Sure.) it as, uh,  something that is hardened. You know,  

it's like it becomes a fossil literally.  Yeah. (Exactly) Like, you know, um,  

it's hard to break it or change it. It becomes  like stiff. Is that correct? The definition? 

Yeah, yeah. Exactly. You, you mentioned fossils,  like we think of dinosaur bones, or you know,  

bones from, I don't know, ancient man. So I think  when we think about these things, we can think of  

fossils as, you know, things from a long time ago  that become hard, like rock. So learning grammar  

is all about learning patterns. And you know,  if you think about the, you know, for example,  

verb tenses always have the same structure. You  just need to observe what the structure is and  

apply it to create new sentences with it. Um, you  know, I'd like to just share something very like  

funny that I, I was thinking about when we spoke  about doing this episode. I was thinking about  

when I started learning, I don't think about it in  English. I've actually, you know, I'm, I'm doing  

my TEFL course again cuz I'll be teaching young  learners. And so I need to know about these kinds  

of, um, new ways of, of teaching grammar. And  there was an interesting point about, you know,  

when you're learning your first language, you  don't tend to, fossilized mistakes tend not to  

happen with your first language, it's easy. Like  you, you tend to realize the mistake a lot faster,  

right? So, as you know, I'm bilingual.  So with my second language this happened,  

I notice now immediately because I became more  aware of it, I became, learning the second  

language became fun. And so when I think about  this, uh, topic, it reminds me of how I learned  

my second language. Like with Afrikaans, it was  like, that became a fun exercise that I did,  

um, to figure things out. Like you said, it's,  it's more like compartment, compartmentalizing,  

um, you know, these, these ideas or these  concepts. So I'm thinking about how,  

um, my teachers taught that to me when I was  younger. Cuz of course I was in an English class,  

but they're teaching it in fully  in, they're not using English,  

they're using Afrikaans. And my parents also  speak Afrikaans, but, you know, sometimes. So,  

um, I think about how I would teach that to, you  know, make it fun and, and interesting for young  

learners to be able to grow up thinking of the  language as, you know, something that they can  

have fun with. And, um, yeah, exactly. Like there  are patterns as you've, as we've spoke, spoken  

about. So let's talk a little bit more about, you  know, it being fun. Let's, let's get into that. 

Yeah. You mentioned at the beginning, right,  Casse, that most people find grammar boring. Yeah?  

Um, honestly, personally, I don't understand why,  it's so fascinating to understand, you know, why,  

you know, the, like, the structure of the  language, but, you know, maybe I'm crazy.  

Yeah? But, okay. Uh, but the point is, uh, it can  be fun. Yeah? You can make it fun. So for example,  

let's say, um, you use movies and series to  identify the grammar points you are studying.  

Yeah. So it doesn't have to be only with the  grammar book. You can also use that with real  

media. Uh, let me give you an example here. Yeah?  We have a short clip from the movie The Lord of  

the Rings, where the character Frodo tells  Gandolph that he feels sad for what happened  

to him. Allright? So first let's watch the clip. T  is here in the studio with us. He's gonna roll it  

for us. And then I'm gonna break down one specific  structure that we hear Frodo using here. Allright? 

I wish the Ring had never come to me.  I wish none of this had happened. So  

do all who live to see such times,  but that is not for them to decide.  

All we have to decide is what to do  with the time that is given to us. 

Alright. So here we hear Frodo using the  phrase: I wish the Ring had never come to me.  

I wish the Ring had never come to me. We can use  this structure to express regret for something.  

So, um, looking at the clip here, or even if  you're listening, um, lemme just give you some  

context here. Frodo feels he's having a moment of  weakness. Yeah. Because you now, if you know the  

story, uh, he is, um, given the responsibility at  the beginning of the story to carry this Ring to  

Mordor. Yeah? And, it becomes, uh, a challenging  journey for him at some point with many obstacles  

and, you know, um, and enemies to, to fight. So  he's in a moment of weakness now expressing this  

regret, this feeling of, Oh, I wish the Ring had  never come to me. The structure here is I wish  

plus past perfect, okay? Which is had or  hadn't plus past participle. So for example,  

imagine the situation. Imagine you go on a trip  and you bring your old laptop on this trip,  

but then your laptop stops working during the  trip. And then I go, ah, my laptop broke because  

it was too old. Okay? That's the situation.  Now, let me express some regret about this.  

I wish I had bought a new laptop before traveling.  You see, I wish I had bought a new laptop before  

traveling, because now I can't use it. Yeah? And  it's the same structure we see here Frodo using:  

I wish the Ring had never come to me, but you  see, I mean, one thing that I find fascinating,  

Casse, about grammar is that is because, you  know, grammar gives you the tools actually to  

communicate these more complex ideas. Because, you  know, maybe you wanna communicate a very specific  

idea, like, in this case, I wanna express this  regret about something that happened in the past,  

but I don't know how to do it. So by studying  a little bit of the grammar of it, learning the  

structure, it's like you're gonna increase or  improve your repertoire, right? Your language  

repertoire. Yeah? And then, uh, you will be able  to communicate, uh, more things, you know? And,  

um, I've had students like that, like, you know,  sometimes they wanna communicate more complex  

ideas or different ideas, but they don't have the,  the structure, the knowledge of the structures  

in place yet. So, you know, they try to, you  know, speak in a certain way and we try to  

understand them. Yeah? But you know, that's, I  think, um, you know, an example of the importance  

of studying a little bit of grammar, adding a  little bit of grammar to your routine as well. 

I agree with you. I think it's, it's, it's the  foundation. It's the building blocks. Like you,  

like you mentioned, when you know where to place  the bricks, you are able to do more. You're able  

to build a house. Imagine. Yeah. I think it's,  that's a nice analogy. You could think of a wall.  

You have lots of bricks. You have, (Yeah.)  you can, (Yeah.) if you place them randomly,  

you're not gonna build anything . But  if you place them in the correct order,  

you're gonna build a house, you're gonna  build a castle, a wall, something useful. 

So, Casse, could you share some examples now  in the negative form from the structure we  

just saw? I wish plus pass participle,  or actually I wish plus past perfect. 

Yeah. So if we use it in the negative, we  would say, I wish I hadn't. I wish I had not,  

blah, blah, blah. So an example would be, I wish  I hadn't skipped the gym yesterday because now  

I feel icky. Or I wish I had not stayed up all  night watching TV because now I'm really tired. So  

yeah, you can use it in that way. I think it's  exactly the same. So in each of these examples,  

I'm expressing regret, as you mentioned  before, um, about something that I did  

in the past. So as you can see as well, like I  wish I hadn't, is basically showing remorse for  

an action that you had done in, in that particular  situation. So like, all this talk about grammar,  

like, reminds me that, you know, if you  want to improve in this area, I guess the  

only thing you can do is to practice it. The  only way you're gonna get better at it is to  

practice it. And what better way to do that than  to find a speaking partner to do that with. Um,  

and you mentioned earlier on that you did it for,  you did it basically on a consistent basis, and  

this is how you were able to improve your grammar.  And I think when you have a speaking partner,  

it makes it a lot more fun. Right? So another  fun thing you can do for practice is, of course,  

to use this podcast to identify new grammar  points in the conversation that we are having.

Allright, so let's move on  to this week's big challenge. 

You know, there is a saying that goes,  practice makes perfect, but I don't think  

that's absolutely true. But one thing I do  know is that practice makes it automatic.  

You know? So the more you practice  something, the more automatic or  

second nature it becomes to you. So you can  start practicing right now. The question is,  

what is one interesting grammatical structure that  you've noticed us using in this podcast today?  

Write a sentence in the comments using the  same grammatical structure, or you can just  

send us an email at [email protected].  So, for example, let's say that, uh, you've  

noticed that Casse or myself use the present  perfect, yeah, during this, uh, conversation  

today - create a present perfect sentence and  share it in the comment section below, or send us  

an email. Yeah? So that's a great way for you to  practice new grammar structures you're learning. 

Yeah. So that's it. I, I think that you are  always so inspiring, Thiago, when you talk about,  

you know, grammar and your journey, and I  think everything you've shared today was  

valuable. Even if you're not, you know, wired  that way like me, I think thinking of it as a  

car and thinking of the metaphorical, you  know, thinking of like going from being,  

um, you know, boring, like, ugh, I have to learn  this step. I have to learn this rule to it being  

like, yeah, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do  this and I'm gonna become like a automatic driver. 

Yeah. Casse, thank you for that. And I do believe  in that saying that goes, Success leaves clues,  

right? Success leaves clues. So, uh, I've been  reading some of the comments here on YouTube, and  

it's wonderful to see how many people, uh, that  relate to my journey with English, to my story,  

they find inspiration in it. That's awesome. Thank  you so much, guys. It's amazing. Yeah. I feel very  

thankful for that. But this is me leaving you  a little clue, you know, if you like the way I  

speak English, look, I paid attention to grammar.  Yeah? I actually studied grammar. I spent a few  

years of my journey dedicating to that. So you  don't have to love it, but here's a little clue  

for you. Maybe pay a little bit more attention  to it. Yeah. If you wanna sound maybe like, like  

me. Yeah. You know, if you have me as a, as your  English speaking model. Allright. It's the clue? 

All right guys. So that's all we have  for this episode, so stay tuned for next  

week's episode and we're looking forward  to seeing you all then. 1, 2, 3. Aww Aww  

yeah. yeah!