Language Learning Tips and Insights from Polyglot Steve Kaufmann

[Music]

Hi everyone. I'm Jennifer  from English with Jennifer.  

How often do you get to meet new people?  I think when you have the opportunity to  

meet someone interesting, you  should reach out and grab it.  

That's what I did. I recently had a conversation  with Steve Kaufman, a well-known polyglot.  

A polyglot is someone who is multilingual. They  know multiple or many languages. "Poly" means  

"many." I've always admired the abilities of  people who speak different languages, but Steve  

actually knows more than just a few. I'll let  you find out just how many in the interview.  

Steve also shares his thoughts on language  learning, which I think you'll find helpful.

Steve, I'm so excited to meet with you today.  Thank you for joining me. I'm looking forward to  

our discussion. I know a little bit about you, but  I don't know if all of my viewers do, so I thought  

the very first question I'm going to ask is  probably the question you get asked the most...is  

how many languages do you know? Okay. So uh you  know there are appearances. There's reality and  

reality is that I can probably easily speak 10 or  12 languages. That's amazing. But there is another  

say ten or eight languages that I have at various  times put a great deal of effort into learning  

and even traveled to the country and used, but  right now if you said, "Let's have a conversation  

in Romanian," I would struggle. And so, it's  sort of on a gradual declining sort of level  

of proficiency. But you have some knowledge  of all those languages, which is absolutely  

amazing. Yeah and and more than some languages.  It's like I have maybe like in Korean, I have  

40,000 words. The way we count them on LingQ, and  it wouldn't take me long if I were there for a day  

or two. I'd be quite operational, but I think  it's important for people to remember that you  

know language learning is not about perfection,  so even in your first second language, like  

the first language you're learning, which people  learning English that might be the first language,  

or maybe not because many people say have several  languages. But it's never about perfection,  

and every effort that we put into learning  a language is in discovering a language and  

learning about the language, it's all good.  And I don't feel any particular obligation to  

maintain my languages or to demonstrate that  I can do you know XYZ in the language. It's  

all good. I think that's wonderful that you  said that, and I also say, like as a teacher,  

I know a lot about the English language, and I  know more because I've taught it for so long,  

but that doesn't mean that I know everything about  the English language. And I still make my own  

mistakes. Teachers do make mistakes as well, so  I'm glad that you said perfection is off the table  

for all of us. Off the table. The next question  is why. Because as I understand, like you're not  

a professor. You're not...your specialty isn't  linguistics, so what compelled you to learn all  

these languages? ...Who are you? What is your  background? What do you do, and what compelled  

you to learn all these languages? All right. So  first of all since you mentioned the the subject  

of background, you'll notice I notice now that the  background behind me, which is supposed to be a  

bookshelf, is what I use when I make my videos,  but since it's only a curtain, okay, therefore,  

in this angle you can actually see the top of my  bookshelf. All right, so I'll just mention that  

background -- it's a fake bookshelf background. So  my background is...I uh I was a Canadian diplomat  

for seven years, and my first assignment was  to go to Hong Kong to learn Mandarin Chinese.  

And just, by the way, Hong Kong was not a  Mandarin-speaking environment, and yet I  

learned Mandarin there, and I always use that as  an example that you don't need to be in the place  

where the language is spoken in order to learn the  language. And in many cases, people who are where  

the language is spoken never manage to learn it,  so it's an advantage to be where the language is  

spoken, but it's not a necessary condition, nor  is it a guarantee that you're going to learn the  

language. Then I lived in Japan, and then I worked  in the forest industry for more than 40 years,  

and along the way, a combination of it was useful  for me to know these languages. I realized that  

I could learn them, and developed a method of  learning them that worked, so I was motivated  

to learn more of them. Generally, the motivation  was not I wanted one day speak 20 languages,  

but rather all of a sudden I became interested in  Russian, or I became interested in the languages  

of the Middle East, which is what I'm doing  right now -- Persian and Arabic. And recently,  

I've been doing some Turkish. It's more of the  interest and the realization that every language  

which we explore and discover, you know, the  process itself is rewarding. Yes. And of course,  

if eventually you're able to use the language in  some way reading, listening, speaking that is also  

rewarding, but even the process is rewarding.  Yes, it is. It is. And it's an ongoing process  

that's never quite finished. Isn't it right it's  the journey that we enjoy, not so much trying  

to reach some destination? Well, that ties into  another question that I had in my mind. Because  

you sometimes you travel to a country, sometimes  you don't. I'm very glad that you made that point  

that you don't have to live, for example, in  an English-speaking country to learn to speak  

English, but it's usually that initial interest  like something about a culture that pushes you.  

I'm going to learn that language. So, what is  the connection between language and culture?  

Because you don't just say, "Ah, that looks  like an interesting language. I'll learn it."  

It sounds to me like there's something in  the culture that's pulling you towards that  

language. Is that correct? You know what? The  motivation could be anything, like you know,  

many people learn a language because their spouse  or partner...true...speaks that language, or maybe  

they have trouble communicating with their parents  or grandparents or want to visit the country that  

they their ancestors came from, and they never  really had much connection with it. In my case,  

for example, I was going to visit Crete,  so I decided to learn Greek. I was going  

to visit Romania on business; I decided  to learn Romanian. I think in many cases,  

there could be something else that triggers the  interest, and then as we get into the language,  

we discover things there that continue to pull  us into the language. There's an expression in  

French. L'appétit vient en mangeant. So as you  start eating, the appetite grows. So very often  

you know, if I look at my Persian or Arabic, I  had very little knowledge of say Persian culture,  

but you know, at LingQ, we have a collaborator who  lives in Iran and she created such a wide range of  

of content audio with text about the history of  Iran, about Iranian minority minorities in Iran,  

Iranian food, movie directors in Iran, and so it's  it's actually, to some extent, yeah I mean sure,  

the culture. I remember when I started into  Russian, I watched a movie with English subtitles,  

and it took place in Russia in the 19th century,  and so that was very motivating to me. I imagined  

this world of Russia. And the same when I when  I got into French, but in the case of Chinese,  

for example, I don't...I can't say that the the  Chinese culture dragged me into Chinese, but as  

I started learning Chinese, I discovered more and  more of China's history and culture and literature  

and stuff, so I I think it's it's it's not always  the thing that brings us into the language,  

but if we can get interested in the culture, then  we're going to have an easier time learning it.  

If we are resisting the culture, then it'll be  more difficult. That's a good way to express it:  

Don't resist. Embrace. Yes. I think a lot of  people relate to the idea of there's a trigger,  

and then you want to learn more. You start to  learn, and that appetite grows, as you say, desire  

is one thing. Putting in the effort is another.  So, two questions about the adult learners. Some  

people argue, "But it's so much harder as an adult  to learn a language." What's your opinion on that?

Well, so I see two questions there. First of  all the importance of of culture is sort of,  

you know, as a an element of maintaining your  interest. Because when we learn a language  

actually the beginning part in a way is the  easiest because there are many early victories.  

You know nothing and now you know something.  You didn't understand anything, and now you  

understand something. However, all experienced  language learners know that after a certain point,  

once we've learned the sort of high frequency  vocabulary and, of course, frequency declines  

very, very quickly. Now we have to learn a lot  of low frequency vocabulary, and so, therefore,  

we have to do a lot of listening and reading,  and often we have the impression that we're not  

improving, and that's where the interest in the  material you're using could be culture, history,  

sport, whatever. You have to be dealing with  things that are of interest to you because that  

will keep you going. Yes. Okay and then I forget  that there was a second part of your question.  

Yes. I didn't voice it. Adults. Basically, but  you're answering it. Yeah. Okay. But so the the  

adults, yes, if you take a five-year-old and  pluck them out of wherever they were and put  

them into a different language environment and  throw them in together with a bunch of kids,  

they're going to speak the language very quickly.  They're not inhibited. They hear people saying  

things. They say it wrong until they start  saying it right. People don't correct them, and  

pretty soon they're functional in the language.  Adults aren't able to do that because they're  

more inhibited because they don't they're not in  there playing, like maybe if an adult were thrown  

in with a bunch of native speakers and have not  no other option but to try to use that language  

every day, they would learn more quickly, so to  that extent, children...it's easy for children,  

and children especially say under the age of  10, the brains are more flexible. They still,  

you know, the opportunity for some other language  to take over, and the longer we stay with the  

one language, the more our brains become a  little more rigid, you know, in terms of uh  

focused on that one language. However, adults  have other advantages. It could be the subject we  

brought up, which is an interest in the culture,  for example. Adults have vocabulary in their own  

language, so obviously a five-year-old has a  limited vocabulary even in their own language.  

So an adult comes in with life experience and  wide, you know, vocabulary in their own language,  

which they can use to learn what the equivalent  is in the new language. So adults have some  

advantages I think. Adults, I mean, I can learn a  language with the same writing system as English,  

and especially if if there's a lot of common  vocabulary, as even was the case with Romanian,  

I can learn those languages quite quickly...Not  that I speak without an accent like a kid might  

do, right? But I can read stuff. I can maybe  follow the news on television. I can do things  

after six months to a year that a child  wouldn't be able to do, so I think there  

are advantages and disadvantages. But age is no  obstacle. Very well said. I'm glad you said that.  

But then some adults argue, and you could relate  to this, we're all such busy people. Right?  

And we fight to find time for things. So what do  you say to the busy adult who says, "I''d love to,  

but it's just so hard to find the time to invest."  Sure. I mean, we all have to decide what what our  

priorities are in life. Right? So yes, you have  to be interested. You have to be interested;  

you have to be motivated. You have to  be motivated, and you have to find the  

time. Those are the two sort of ingredients for  success: motivation and time. Fortunately, today  

it's easier than it ever was because I have on my  iPhone...I have vast libraries of content, audio,  

and text in different languages. If I'm working  on Persian, you know, I carry all of my stuff on  

my iPhone. If I got five minutes here, 10 minutes  there, I get up in the morning, I make breakfast,  

I listen to the language that I'm learning. I'm  listening.I don't quite understand it all. Then  

I go and read it on on LIngQ. I look up words and  phrases. I can find 20 minutes here, 10 minutes  

there. It's just...it has become easier, but it  has always been, you know, adults play sports,  

adults read books, adults play poker, adults find  the time to do things that are important to them.  

So if learning a language is important to you, and  and the advantage again, with if you're going to  

play poker or play tennis, you have to set aside  an hour or two to do that. Whereas with languages,  

you can do it while in the car driving, while  sitting on the train, while cooking...well  

you know, cooking an egg maybe, so...but  certainly cleaning up you can do it. So yeah,  

I think it's a matter of priorities, and it is  easier to learn languages than it ever was before.  

And as an activity, it's easier to do than some of  the other things that adults like to do in their  

free time. Yes, the content is there. There's so  much out there. It's available, so that's not an  

excuse. As you said, prioritize. I agree and  it sounds like you work it into your day. You  

have to make it part of your routine, part of your  life, and that goes back to what you said earlier.  

You don't have to be in the country where the  language is spoken. It's up to you to access the  

content and work it into your day somehow, and  you could even multitask, as you suggested. So  

besides working it into your day, you've moved  from language to language, and I'm sure you've  

developed your methodology. Is there a top tip  or top few tips that you could give to learners?  

Well, first of all, I had a look at your  channel, and you have some great videos on  

different aspects of English, and I presume most  of your viewers are people learning English. Yes  

and some teachers too. And some teachers, so I  think the number one thing is to try to enjoy  

it. Yeah. You know you can zoom in on different  aspects of English. I mean the tense system in  

English can drive you crazy. I'm sure there are  tips that you provide. Like mine might always be:  

simplify. Just use a simple questions. Don't  worry about all this data you know. So there  

are things that you can do. However, if you  do expose yourself to a lot of the language,  

you're going to start to acquire some language  language habits, you know, subconsciously and  

those things are going to stick with you better  than anything that you deliberately learn.  

And if you put yourself in front of a list  of phrasal verbs and read through that list  

three or four times, you're actually not going to  achieve very much. You're far better to encounter  

these phrasal verbs or different, you know, tenses  in different contexts, and and the brain is going  

to figure out a lot on its own. And once you  have a lot of that experience, then if you get  

an explanation or some help from your channel or  elsewhere, it's going to refer to something that  

the that you have already experienced. Yes. So  that you have to give yourself as much natural  

meaningful, enjoyable exposure to the language as  you can, and with that, if you have that in place,  

all of the other help, looking up a grammar thing,  your teacher suggesting something, advice you  

might get on on a YouTube channel, all of that is  then going to be, you know, it hits fertile ground  

because you have already, you know, ingested so  much input in the language. So input, to my mind,  

is extremely important -- important and enjoyable  input. I agree. That's why I say "happy studies."  

That's my catchphrase. I want it to be happy.  It should not be like a chore and terrible,  

but I also love the key word you said is exposure.  And that goes back to you making that a priority.  

If we want to learn a language, it's increasing  the exposure, which goes beyond a lesson with a  

teacher. You could hire the teacher, you could  go to a YouTube channel, but exposure needs to  

come from various sources. Right? Absolutely.  Well, one question I have is...there was a  

brief time...I have not traveled the path of a  polyglot, but back in college, there was a time  

I was studying Russian, and then I decided to take  Japanese. So for like two years, I first would go  

to my Russian class. Then I'd go to my Japanese  class. And it would happen where like, you know,  

they asked a question, you say, "はい...Да."  Like, you're just ...do you mix up languages?

Sure. It happens. I can, and the strangest  language connections occasionally, you know,  

the brain kind of short circuits something.  It happens. It's like I also make mistakes  

in languages. I forget things in languages.  All of these things happen and, obviously,  

if I had only learned one other language, I would  make fewer mistakes. I wouldn't confuse them,  

but it's just a condition of learning different  languages. It's barely noticeable when you're  

communicating with someone. They hear a word that  doesn't belong. They don't know quite what it is.  

It happens to be Persian. You're speaking Russian.  Yeah. I don't worry about it, but it does happen,  

and if you then uh and typically it'll happen if  I've been putting a lot of effort into Persian,  

and then I'm trying to speak Korean. Then the  odd Persian word is going to jump in there,  

but if I continue with my Korean, and then that  won't happen. So it's one of these things that  

happens. It's part of the imperfect world of  learning languages, not really a big issue. I  

marvel at what your brain has been able to do. Do  you think knowing all these languages has changed  

your mindset? Your world view? Well absolutely.  To the extent that every language you learn  

is a kind of a door to that culture and those  people, so people whose language you know,  

they kind of come alive more and typically like  right now with Persian and Turkish, I find myself  

interested in the history of Central Asia, and  so I buy books on the subject, which I read in  

English because it's too difficult for me to read  them in Persian, let's say, but it just drags  

you into that other world, and the more you know  about different countries through the language or  

basically stimulated by the language, of course,  you have a more complete picture of those people  

and and those histories and and those cultures.  So it it changes your world view definitely.  

That's wonderful. But it's not because I speak  different languages. It's more that through the  

languages I've learned so much more. And you  also...I appreciate the fact that, you know,  

in different languages you can have different  sounds. You can have different ways of expressing  

the same thing. You can even have things that  they say in that language that we don't say in  

some other language, so you become more aware of  how many different ways there are of being human.  

Let's put it that way. Wonderful. Thank you so  much. I don't know if we have time for one final  

question. Sure. It's a request, not to put you  on the spot, but I don't...I have a little bit  

of knowledge of some other languages to help me  understand the challenges that my students face.  

The only language that I've really pursued so  that I can be um conversational is Russian, and I  

thought if we just end with just a couple of lines  in Russian, would you feel comfortable doing that?

[Russian] Of course. Good.

And for everyone listening  I'll try to explain perhaps  

in the video description what we're saying. Yeah.

[Translation] I just thought it would be interesting for viewers to hear how you and I speak in the Russian language.

Although with mistakes maybe, but... Yes, of course. But it's possible.

Because I personally believe that practice is necessary. Practice is important.

But it's not necessary...not so important to speak (only) with native speakers.

It's useful, of course, but in order to speak, you have to speak with people.

And if a person speaks with other people who also study the language, I consider that useful. Do you agree?

I agree. I think when we study any language, you have to hear...I prefer to hear native speakers.

Yes, because even though I speak with mistakes, my pronunciation isn't, let's say, so...perfect.

In any case, it's a model. I need to...as much as possible...I forgot my Russian.

And there's Persian that my brain is stopping me from speaking Russian.

But many people, the majority of people who speak English are not native speakers.

That's true. It's necessary to understand.

If someone speaks with you, I don't know, and they're from Russia, China, Brazil, you have to understand them.

That's why I think understanding English spoken by those who aren't native speakers is important.

It's important. But in the case of other languages, it's not so important. And to speak, yes, I prefer to speak with native speakers when I'm studying.

Because it's not only a native speaker, but it's also actually someone who carries the culture. Yes. That's true.

That's why I prefer...but all the same, you have to speak. And more than anything, as you know, I concentrate on listening and reading.

When I listen, more than anything, I prefer to listen to native speakers.

Thank you. Thank you. And just  the way to conclude to that,  

I'll just say those who don't speak Russian is...I  do think it's wonderful to have clear models, but  

the opportunity to speak is there, especially  for English, as Steve said. Because it is such a  

global language. There are people to practice with  and not necessarily native speakers. And I'll just  

add when I was studying Russian, we had a language  pledge, and I was studying with other Americans, and  

while we were studying, we promised only to speak  Russian with each other, and that's how I also got  

my daily practice, not just in the classroom with  the teachers, but with my classmates. And I began  

to feel more confident and lose some of my shyness  speaking with other learners. So one thing I would  

add, I think one has to be a little careful, like I...  in Japan, for example, Japanese people get together  

in their conversation classes and it can reinforce  incorrect usage. True, true. Poor pronunciation...  

As you know, I've put a major emphasis on input. I  don't believe you need to speak all that much at  

least until you have a high level of comprehension,  so to me the number one goal is comprehension, uh  

vocabulary, and if you have those things, when you  get the opportunity to speak, whether it be with  

a native speaker or a non-native speaker, you're  going to be able to speak better and better and  

eventually to speak well, you have to speak a  lot, but in the case of English, English is quite  

different from most languages. I mean Russian,  of course, Russian is spoken to some extent in  

the former sort of Soviet sphere, although less  so than it was, but in the case of English , 

you know, sometimes people say, "Well, should I learn  English English or should I learn American English? 

You know, you have to be able to understand Indian  and English, Singapore English, Brazilian English,  

French English, so in the case of English, it's  very important to listen to English spoken by  

non-native speakers. I'm not so convinced that  that's true of other languages because I find  

it's always more motivating to listen to a native  speaker, so to that extent, my content...if I all  

the languages that I learn, I don't...if I hear a  non-native speaker, I turn them off. I want  

to hear the native speaker of Persian or of Arabic,  but English is a bit of a separate case.

You're going to...you might find yourself in in discussion  with, you know, somebody from Mexico or somebody  

from, you know, Portugal wherever. China, Japan. You  have to be able to understand what they're saying  ,

so you have to develop that level of flexibility  that you can understand all different kinds of  

English, and similarly when people worry about  "Should I learn, you know, Mexican Spanish or Spanish  

from Spain, you have to be able to understand them  all, so I think when it comes to listening you  

should have as broad a range as possible, and  when it comes to sort of developing your own  

speaking ability, I think is useful to focus in on  native speakers Thank you so much, Steve Kaufman.  

Thank you so much for your time, and it's been a  pleasure meeting you. Okay. Same here. Thank you.  

Bye. So, what can you take away from this? I  hope you remember what Steve said about trying  

to speak a language perfectly: don't. Both Steve  and I agreed perfection is off the table. Go easy  

on yourself. You can strive for a high degree of  accuracy, but mistakes happen in communication.  

Also, you're never too old to learn. You need a  genuine interest and a real desire. Prioritize  

language learning. Work it into your life.  Look for ways to expose yourself to English.  

Remember there are many resources  out there. Steve's YouTube channel  

is one of them. I'll put the  link in the video description.  

In my opinion, your fellow language learners are  a resource as well. If you have a conversation  

partner, this is a way to gain practice and  build confidence expressing yourself in English.  

I agree with Steve that you need to be able  to understand English spoken by many different  

people. It's a global language, but I'll clarify  and tell you that I personally feel there are very  

proficient non-native English speakers who can  provide a good model, so you don't have to limit  

your search to native speakers. Okay? Please  remember to like and share the video. If you  

found the interview useful. As always, thanks  for watching and happy studies! I'd like to say  

a special thank you to a kind-hearted Patron.  Elena pledged two dollars a month. Thank you.

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