An Activist Investor on Challenging the Status Quo | Bill Ackman | TED

翻译人员: Aria Li 校对人员: Yanyan Hong

Alison Taylor: Talk to us about what the key elements are

艾莉森·泰勒（Alison Taylor）：跟我们聊聊， 在这个世界上取得成功的关键要素是什么。

of success in this world.

There's research, there's strategy.

包括研究、策略，

It also seems you need to react very dynamically to events

还有，似乎还需要非常灵活地应对事件， 以掌控整个局面。

in a way that seizes control of the narrative.

But talk to us about how you see this.

和我们谈谈你是如何看待这一点的。

Bill Ackman: So investing is about putting out money today

比尔·阿克曼（Bill Ackman）：投资， 就是今天投入资金，

in the hope or promise of getting back more in the future.

希望或承诺 将来能获得更多回报。

And so it's about predicting the future.

因此，这是关于预测未来。

And what we do is we find businesses

我们做的是，寻找那些我们非常确信

where we believe, with a very high degree of confidence,

未来几十年会保持稳定发展的企业。

we know what the business is going to look like over decades.

Because decades matter in valuing something.

因为长远来看， 时间对于估值至关重要。

And so it's really an analysis about disruption.

因此，这实际上 是对颠覆性影响的评估。

What's the risk of two former Stanford students in a garage

两个前斯坦福学生 在车库中搞出点新东西，

coming up with something that disrupts a business?

可能会颠覆现有业务的风险有多大？

So that's the most important part of being a long-term investor,

因此，这是成为长期投资者 最重要的部分，

figuring out the durability of the franchise, the barriers to entry,

弄清楚特许经营权期限、 行业进入壁垒和业务护城河。

the moat around the business.

And then the rest of it is just making sure

剩下的，就是确保 你以今天的价格买入该企业，

you're buying that business at a price

where you put up money today

and you're going to get a lot more back in the future.

将来你会得到更多的回报。

Very simple.

很简单的。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

AT: Alright.

艾莉森：好吧。

So more recently you've taken this approach to other realms,

最近，你对其他领域也采取了这种方法，

to social and political realms.

在社会和政治领域。

So can you talk to us about what is similar in these other realms?

能和我们谈谈， 投资领域与其他领域的相似之处吗？

You have said, for example, that problem at Harvard is a governance problem,

比如你曾说过， 哈佛大学的问题是一个治理问题，

and you work a lot on governance problems and making them better.

你在治理问题上做了很多工作， 让它们变得更好。

So tell us how social and political activism is the same

请你谈一谈，社会和政治活动主义 与激进投资有什么相同之处？

as activist investing, and tell us how it's different.

又有什么不同。

BA: So I'll just correct one thing.

比尔：我想纠正一件事。

实际上，我已经 研究社会议题很长时间了。

So I've been at this for a long time,

The social stuff actually.

It's just a little more visible in the last kind of six months.

只是在过去的六个月里， 它变得更引人注目了一些。

But I've had various campaigns over time.

不过，我一直在开展各种活动。

艾莉森·泰勒：确实如此。

AT: That is very true.

But you have now entered the headlines in a new way.

但现在你以一种新的方式登上了头条，

So talk to us about that.

跟我们谈谈这件事吧。

BA: Sure, so Harvard is the oldest American corporation.

比尔：当然， 哈佛是美国历史最悠久的学府。

And as a corporation, it has a governance structure.

作为一家机构，它有治理结构：

board of directors, certificate of incorporation,

董事会、注册证书、章程之类的东西。

bylaws, things like this.

And what we do for a living is basically find a great company

我们的工作基本上 就是找到那些迷失方向的优秀企业，

that's kind of lost its way.

And then we help that great business kind of find its way.

然后帮助这些伟大的企业 重新找到方向。

And sometimes you find the way by making a change in management,

有时候，你得通过 更换管理层来找到方向，

sometimes it's a change in governance,

有时候是改变治理结构，

sometimes it's a change in strategy,

有时候是调整战略，

sometimes it's all of the above.

有时候是上述所有方式。

And what we find with really great businesses is that they do tend,

我们发现， 即使是真正伟大的企业，

随着时间推移， 也往往会迷失方向，

over time, to lose their way,

because the problem of success and greatness becomes hubris.

因为成功和伟大最终会变成傲慢。

And also in a disruptive world,

同时，在一个充满颠覆性的世界里，

you have to disrupt yourself,

你必须自己颠覆自己，

because if you don't, someone else will.

因为如果你不这样做，别人就会颠覆你。

But you know, the problem with the nonprofit model,

但你知道，非营利模式的问题在于，

作为一个在慈善事业中花费了大量时间的人，

and again, as someone who spent a lot of time in philanthropy,

one of the biggest lessons is

最大的教训之一就是，

that if you can find a for-profit solution to a problem,

如果你能找到一个盈利性的方案 来解决问题，

the probability of success is much greater.

成功的可能性要大得多。

但我们来谈谈哈佛，它的商业模式，

But if you think about Harvard, the business model,

so when I went to Harvard, and I graduated in 1988,

我 1988 年从哈佛毕业的时候，

our class had 1,600 people.

我们那一届毕业生有 1600 人。

The Harvard class, now, 36 years later,

到现在 36 年过去了，

has about maybe a little bit more than 1,600 people, but not much.

一届学生人数可能比 1600 人稍多一点， 但也没多多少。

So this is supposedly a great corporation, right?

哈佛被认为是一所顶尖的学府，对吧？

I don't know of another great one

我找不出另一所在过去 35 年里 没有扩张的顶尖学府。

that has not grown over the last 35 years.

Now one thing that has grown is the cost to go to Harvard.

而事实上，增长的只有去哈佛的费用，

That has grown at about an eight percent compounded rate.

以大约每年 8% 的复合增长率增长。

If you could invest in that, that would have been great.

如果你能投资这个，那是很好的。

So the way that Harvard has grown its revenues over time

所以，哈佛随时间增加收入的方法 就是提高学费。

is by increasing the price.

And the question is,

问题是，

is the service that you're being delivered as good as it was 34 years ago?

你现在得到的服务， 和 34 年前的服务一样好吗？

Is it better?

还是更好了？

And I think it's worse.

我认为它变差了。

And I think it's worse

我认为服务变差了，

because universities were designed to be places

是因为，大学本应该 是可以分享有争议观点的地方，

where people could share controversial ideas,

and that's why they developed this thing called tenure.

这也是他们 发展出终身教职制度的原因。

And that was to protect faculty so they could say controversial things

终身教职制度是为了保护教师，

让他们可以自由发表有争议的观点， 而不会因此失去工作。

and not lose their job.

But what's happened is

但实际情况是，

tenure’s actually led to the reduction in the free speech necessary

终身教职制度 实际上导致了言论自由的减少，

for people to be exposed to ideas.

对于人们能接触到的不同观点而言。

Because what happens is, you're a student,

因为，如果你是一名学生，

you graduate with loans

你毕业时背负着贷款，

because it's expensive to go to a place like Harvard,

因为去哈佛的学费很贵，

you try to, you know, get your PhD

你尝试获得博士学位，

and you want to advance in the university.

并且想在大学里晋升。

Well, you've got to appeal to the faculty

那么，你就得 取悦最终会任命你的教师。

that ultimately are going to appoint you.

And so to the extent an institution has veered in one direction or another,

所以，如果一个机构 在政治上偏离了某个方向，

kind of politically, you have to kind of follow that lead,

你就得跟随那个方向，

otherwise you're not going to get advanced.

否则你就不会得到晋升。

So ironically, the system of tenure designed to create a world

因此讽刺的是，终身教职制度的本意，

是创造一个可以讨论有争议观点的世界，

where controversial ideas could be discussed

has actually led to the shutdown of those ideas.

却在实际中导致了争议观点的消失。

And that's led Harvard, you know, despite the massive --

这也导致了哈佛，尽管学费巨额——

it costs today, 84,000 dollars a year to go to Harvard as a student.

如今，作为学生 去哈佛一年的费用是 84,000 美元。

I think what you're getting, the education, is not as good as it was.

但我认为你得到的教育并不比以前好， 反而变得更糟了。

It's gotten worse.

So that ultimately is a governance problem.

所以这说到底是一个治理问题。

You don't blame the CEO in a case like that.

这种情况，你不会责怪 CEO（首席执行官），

You blame the board that selected the CEO or hasn't helped the CEO.

你会责怪选出 CEO 或没能帮助 CEO 的董事会。

So it's very analogous to what we see in the corporate world.

这与我们在商界看到的情况非常相似。

AT: Alright. So a governance problem,

艾莉森：所以， 这是一个治理问题。

and you've described in a lot of detail the way you feel

你刚才详细阐述了 你对哈佛迷失方向的感受，

that the institution has lost its way.

But what about this is different from activist investing?

但这与积极投资有什么不同？

Where do the parallels stop?

不相似之处在哪里？

And also maybe more specifically, how do you see your role?

还有具体来讲，你怎么看待你的角色？

You decided to intervene primarily as an alumni, primarily as a donor?

你决定以校友的身份 还是以捐赠者的身份来干预？

How do you see your role in this conversation?

你怎么看待自己在这件事中的角色？

BA: Very analogous in some ways and not in others.

比尔：在某些方面非常相似， 在其他方面则不同。

So it's analogous in that in my day job,

这和我日常工作的情况类似，

we buy a small percentage of a company,

我们买下公司一小部分股份，

far from control.

远远达不到控股的程度，

We might buy five percent or 10 percent.

我们可能会买入 5% 或 10% 的股份。

And then -- this is sort of the earlier days of Pershing Square,

这是潘兴广场（Pershing Square） 资本管理对冲基金早期的做法，

today we’re less of an activist.

现在我们不那么激进了。

But the earlier days, we wanted to influence a big company

在早期的时候， 我们想要推动大公司做出改变，

to make change,

让它变得更成功、更有价值。

to make it a more successful, more valuable company.

The only way you can do that with a small position

is by advancing your ideas in a public way

你唯一能做的就是公开提出你的观点，

and getting those ideas adopted from a broad collection of other shareholders.

并争取让其他股东接受这些想法。

AT: And that's the taking control of the narrative

艾莉森：这就是掌握了话语权，

and then you get momentum and you get people,

然后你就能形成势头，就会吸引其他人，

you bring people along with you.

让人们跟随你一起前进。

比尔：有时候， 你必须亲自上阵参选。

BA: You know, sometimes you literally have to run for office.

但有些时候， 董事们可能仅仅是为了避免尴尬，

But other times just the risk of embarrassment to the director

motivates, you know, sort of the decision making.

就会推动决策。

But the good news is, ultimately,

好处是，在商业领域， 尤其是盈利性商业领域中，

you can get to an election in a corporate context,

a for-profit corporate context,

where if the shareholders are sufficiently dissatisfied with the directors,

如果股东们对董事会成员足够不满， 他们可以投票撤换董事，

you can replace them

接管公司，并进行必要的改革。

and take control of the corporation and fix it.

The problem with Harvard is that the governance structure

但哈佛的情况不同， 它的治理结构是这样设置的：

is set up in such a way that there's the corporation board,

which is comprised of about 13 members,

而且这些成员都是自己任命的。

is self-appointed.

There are no outside shareholders,

没有外部股东，

like, an alum is not a shareholder.

校友并不算是股东，

You can't call a shareholder meeting and vote out the directors.

你不能召集股东大会投票罢免董事。

And it's really, the only way to have influence is to sufficiently,

真正有影响力的方法只有一个，

就是你能说服全世界， 让人们认识到你的担忧有多重要，

convince the world of the importance of your concerns.

So that other people adopt them.

这样其他人才会支持你。

然后，这种观点就会慢慢渗透到董事会里，

And somehow it permeates into the boardroom,

and some combination of people saying,

有些人会说： “看，这是对的，我们应该这么做。”

"Look, this is correct, we should do this."

And some combination of the pressure of embarrassment, of shame,

同时，尴尬和羞愧的压力 也会促使人们做出正确的决定。

gets people to do the right thing.

但在哈佛这样的非盈利机构中，

But there isn't a legal mechanism to barge your way in

并没有像盈利公司那样 可以通过法律程序强行介入的机制。

in the same way there is in a for-profit context.

AT: Right, and so if you are taking a position in the company,

艾莉森：好的， 所以当你在公司里采取某个立场时，

the stakes are a lot of money,

你押上的是一大笔钱、公司的未来

the future of the company

and your own reputation and that of the company.

以及你自己和公司的声誉。

How do you see the stakes in this conversation about Harvard?

你如何看待这次关于哈佛事件的赌注？

They seem higher to me.

在我看来，这个赌注似乎更大。 你认为呢？

Do you think they're higher?

比尔：要大得多。

BA: They're much higher.

Because first of all,

首先，哈佛在象征意义上非常重要。

Harvard is sort of symbolically very important,

you know, depending on where you went to school,

不管你上的是哪所学校，

people will call it in the top --

人们都会说哈佛是——至少过去是——

at least they used to -- in the top universities in our country.

美国顶尖大学之一。

And they educate, as a result, some of the most high-performing,

哈佛培养了一些表现最好、 最聪明、最有动力的人，

most intelligent, motivated people,

you would expect that to be the Harvard community.

你会期望哈佛就是由这些人组成。

And those people take their place ultimately in society, in media,

而这些人最终会在社会、媒体、

in government, on the Supreme Court.

政府、最高法院中占据一席之地。

And so the education of the next generation of leaders

所以，关于对下一代领导者的教育，

is something all of us, you know, have to be concerned about,

是我们所有人都必须关心的事情，

because that will determine the future.

因为这将决定未来。

AT: So this is the pipeline for the next generation of leaders,

艾莉森：所以， 它是培养未来领导者的通道，

and you want to have a role in shaping that pipeline.

你希望在塑造这个通道的过程中 扮演一个角色。

BA: I think society wants to make sure that that group of leaders

比尔：我认为是社会 希望确保这些领导人是一群优秀的领导者。

is a good group of leaders.

Even if they disagree,

即使他们有不同意见，我们也愿意倾听，

they're prepared to listen

and, you know, perhaps learn something.

可能还会学到一些东西。

AT: Alright.

艾莉森：好的。

So that you've made lots of arguments

在这场关于哈佛未来的讨论中，

during this wider conversation about the future of Harvard.

你已经提出了很多观点。

I'd like to spend a little time on one in particular.

现在，我想聚焦于其中一个话题。

You've been framed by the press as an anti-DEI activist at this point.

媒体把你刻画成了一个反对 DEI（多元化、 公平性、包容性）的活动家。

And when you first appeared on my social media feed,

你第一次出现在我的社交媒体上，

I saw this this post that said something about your belief

是我看到了一篇帖子， 它谈到你相信并支持多元化。

and support of diversity.

And you seem to be contrasting that with this orthodoxy, as you argue it,

似乎将这种信仰，

与你所反对的 DEI 理念形成了鲜明对比。

that is DEI.

I had a reaction to that.

对此，我做的第一件事就是去潘兴广场的网站，

The first thing I did was to go on Pershing Square's website

and to look at your own track record,

查看了你的过往记录，

and I have to say, it was not what I expected.

我必须说，那不是我所预期的。

So I think what I would love to hear from you is,

所以，我很想听听你的看法。

can you articulate a positive vision, in your opinion,

你能否描述一下，在你看来，

for what good diversity looks like

一个好的多元化愿景是怎样的？

with reference to your own firm and your own investments?

特别是关于你自己的公司和你的投资。

BA: So when I first heard of DEI, I thought diversity, that's a good thing,

比尔：当我最初听到 DEI 这个概念时， 我认为多元化是好事，

inherently, I believe.

我本能地相信这一点。

Equity, how can you argue with fairness?

公平性，谁又能反对公平呢？

That was my understanding of what equity is.

这就是我对公平的理解。

And then inclusion, of course, in any organization,

至于包容性，无论是大学还是企业，

whether it's a university or a business, you want people to feel comfortable.

你当然希望人们感到自在，

That's culture.

这就是文化。

When I think about my job as a CEO of a company,

当我思考作为公司 CEO 的职责，

or when I think of my role on a board,

或者我在董事会的角色时，

one of the first concerns I have about a business is the culture.

我最关心的事情之一就是企业文化。

Is this an environment where the best people

这个环境是否能吸引 最优秀的人才来企业工作？

are attracted to come work there, where they can succeed,

他们能否在这里取得成功？

where they can challenge authority

他们能否在认为权威做错事时 挑战权威？

when they think that authority is doing the wrong thing?

我认为这些都是好事。

So these are all, I think, inherently a good thing.

但有人告诉我，

But someone once said to me that you know,

first it starts out as a movement, that's good.

一个运动，最初它是好的，

And then it becomes a business.

然后它变成了商业，

And then it becomes a racket.

最后变成了敲诈。

And I think it's an accurate description of what happens to things --

我觉得这是对事物发展过程的准确描述。

当一个运动变成了一个三个字母的缩写时， 我会开始反感它。

I've come to have an aversion

to when a movement becomes a three-letter acronym.

It seems like that's when they can go a different way.

因为在这时， 这个运动很可能会走向不同的方向。

But in terms of what diversity means to me,

但对我来说，

it's not simply race and gender.

多元化不仅仅是种族和性别。

You know, viewpoint diversity is critically important,

观点多样性， 在大学和企业中都至关重要。

not just in a university, but in a business.

Someone’s socioeconomic background, I think, is a relevant --

它与一个人的社会经济背景相关——

if you're running an investment business,

如果你经营一家投资公司，

you want to have perspective on, you know,

你想要了解

you're investing in companies that sell products

你投资的公司 给这个国家提供的产品或服务，

or services to the country.

And the country is very diverse.

且这个国家非常多元化。

It's very helpful to have people on your investment team, for example,

那投资团队中有来自低收入背景的人 是非常有帮助的。

who might have come from a low-income background.

而且，从公平性的角度来看，

And then just in the spirit of fairness, you know,

you want a society where people who grew up on the Upper East Side

那些在上东区长大、 上私立学校、有SAT辅导的学生，

and you went to a private school and you had SAT tutoring, you know.

You’ve had a lot of advantages versus the student, for example,

有很多优势，

回到招生的例子，

going back to your admissions example,

与那些可能在密西西比长大、 没有上过好学校、

who maybe grew up in Mississippi and didn't go to a very good school,

或可能是单亲家庭的学生相比，

maybe had a single parent.

你会在那些方面做出一些调整。

And you would make sort of adjustments there.

但同样地，一个人 从更有挑战性的背景中培养出来的坚韧，

But also the grit that someone develops,

coming from a more challenged background,

也是你在商业中会考虑的品质。

is something you consider in a business.

所以当你今天看潘兴广场时，

So when you look at Pershing Square today,

我们的员工中有很高比例的人 来自相当普通的经济背景。

a very high percentage of our employees came from, I would say,

quite a modest economic background.

We have enormous diversity in terms of political views,

在政治观点方面， 我们存在巨大的多样性，

like, who should be president, things like this.

比如谁应该当总统，诸如此类。

And we occasionally discuss these things.

我们偶尔会讨论这些事情。

But people respect each other, and they share different points of view.

但人们会互相尊重， 他们分享不同的观点。

And they come from, some are, you know,

他们来自不同的背景，

our investment team is comprised of, you know, a Muslim from Pakistan,

我们的投资团队 由来自巴基斯坦的穆斯林、

a Hindu from India,

来自印度的印度教徒、

a refugee from Iran,

来自伊朗的难民、

a Mexican whose grandmother picked cotton in California,

祖母在加利福尼亚摘棉花的墨西哥人、

a Canadian,

和有家族企业的加拿大人组成。

whose family had a private business.

But we selected them not because of their particular backgrounds,

但之所以选择他们， 并不是因为他们的特殊背景，

but we selected them for their excellence.

而是因为他们的卓越表现，

And the fact that they came from different backgrounds

而他们来自不同背景这一事实，

也使得我们成为一个更成功的组织。

has made us a more successful kind of organization.

在我看来，这是一种非常吸引人的 思考多元化的方式。

That, in my mind, is a very appealing way to think about diversity.

As opposed to saying, let’s look at the percentage of various groups

而不是说，

让我们来看看 这个国家不同种族群体的百分比，

of different ethnic groups in the country,

and then let's force design and organization

so we match that collection.

以便匹配那个结构。

AT: For sure you hear that sort of Noah's Ark frame

艾莉森：你一定 听过那种“诺亚方舟”式的想法，

that if we have a certain set of a certain type,

好像我们只要招齐了各种类型的人，

then our problems will be solved,

问题就能迎刃而解，

which does not necessarily seem to be the case.

但实际上并非如此。

But you see this really, the benefits being dynamism,

但你确实可以看到， 多元化真正带来的益处是活力、

better decision-making,

更明智的决策，

a better reflection of what society looks like within businesses.

以及更真实地 反映出社会在企业中的多样性。

BA: And also, there is a fairness component.

比尔：还有一个公平性的问题。

AT: A fairness component.

艾莉森·泰勒：一个公平性的问题。

BA: My point is, I like,

比尔·阿克曼：我的意思是， 我喜欢这样的世界，

I like a world in which someone who started out with disadvantages

在这个世界里， 那些一开始就处于不利地位的人

gets a closer look

比那些什么都轻易得到的人更受到关注。

than someone who had everything sort of handed to them.

这对我而言是正确的。

That seems right to me.

AT: So I think it's so fascinating,

艾莉森：我觉得这太有趣了，

you've just articulated very well what the benefits are.

你刚刚非常清楚地阐述了好处是什么。

So how do you feel about being framed

那么，你对于 被贴上“反 DEI 活动家”的标签，

and these headlines saying that you're an anti-DEI activist?

以及这些头条新闻的说法有何感受？

BA: You know, the short-form description of me

比尔：嗯，简单来说，

别人给我贴的标签从来都不太准确，

is never really an accurate one, I would say.

我的情况要复杂得多。

I'm more nuanced.

Look, I think I certainly want to be perceived the way that I actually am,

我当然希望人们 能根据我真实的样子来看待我，

as opposed to some caricature of myself.

而不是某个夸张的版本。

And also, I think the ideas are important.

而且我认为这些想法很重要，

And if you want to challenge them,

如果你想挑战它们，

I'm always up for the debate.

我随时准备好辩论。

But, you know, we are in a world today

但是，我们现在生活在这样一个世界里，

where, if you challenge conventional wisdom

如果你挑战传统观念，

or you take on sensitive topics,

或者触及敏感话题，

where you're at risk of being "canceled,"

你就有可能被“取消”，

you know, you can be accused of being a racist.

你可能会被人指责为种族主义者，

You can be accused of lots of things.

或者被指控很多事情。

And I think that's led to a shutdown of kind of, free speech generally,

我认为这种情况 导致了言论自由的某种程度的压制，

which I think is a big negative, you know, for society.

而这对整个社会是一个巨大的损失。

AT: So, yeah, it does seem a factor of our current era

艾莉森：确实， 这似乎是我们这个时代的特点，

that arguments get sort of flattened and oversimplified

争论被扁平化、被简化，

and made more vicious and polarized.

变得极端和两极分化。

And so how do you feel

那么，你对于 你的论点被这样处理有什么感觉呢？

about your arguments being treated like that?

Do you feel that's OK, as long as I get the job done,

你是否觉得只要能完成工作，

as long as I get my goals met,

只要能在哈佛或任何未来的活动中 实现目标，这样也没关系？

at Harvard or any future campaign,

or does this bother you?

或者这让你感到困扰？

Does it bother you to be oversimplified in the press like this?

媒体像这样简化你的观点， 会让你感到烦恼吗？

BA: Of course.

比尔：当然了。

But I'm a big boy, it's OK.

但我是个成熟的成年人，没关系。

And also, I think, you know, I'm a very fortunate person in many ways,

而且我认为我在很多方面都很幸运，

but one of them is I don't have to worry about my employment.

其中之一就是我不必担心我的饭碗。

And, you know, today, if you work for a company

如今，如果你在一家公司工作，

and you are unhappy with,

你对某些事情不满意，

you know, you want to comment about something in politics, for example,

比如想在推特上发表一些政治评论，

and you do it on Twitter,

you can end up losing your job for expressing your views.

你可能会因为表达自己的观点 而丢掉工作。

And I think the world is a better place

我认为，一个更美好的世界，

where all views can be heard,

是所有观点都能被倾听、

can be assessed, can be debated.

被评估、被辩论的地方。

But where, you know,

你知道，

you're not shouted down or canceled or worse.

你不会遭遇被打压、被取关， 或被失业等恶劣状况，

You become unemployed because you have a controversial opinion

你可以放心地发表 对性别或其他任意话题有争议性的观点。

about gender or whatever the topic.

(Applause)

（掌声）

AT: It's true that more of us have the opportunity to have a voice

艾莉森：确实， 我们更多人有机会发声，

and make our views heard,

并让自己的观点被听到，

but that's not proportionate, right?

但这并不成比例，对吧？

Some people's voices are boosted more than others.

有些人的声音被放大得更多。

So how do you think about your voice and your power

你如何看待你的声音、你的力量，

and maybe your responsibility in this realm,

以及可能的你在这方面的责任，

and how you use your voice?

以及你如何使用你的声音？

Especially given what we’ve been talking about,

特别是鉴于我们一直在讨论的，

about how it may become distorted

关于它可能会被扭曲，

and your arguments may become more flattened

你的论点可能会变得更加扁平，

and reduced to something that they were not.

被简化成完全不同的东西。

BA: So one of the criticisms of me during the Harvard campaign

比尔：在哈佛事件中， 有人这样批评我，

as some professor from Yale said,

一位来自耶鲁的教授说：

"Oh, you shouldn't listen to him simply because he's a rich guy."

“哦，你不应该只因为他富有就听他的。”

And I totally agree with that.

我完全同意这一点。

I shouldn’t have more voice by virtue of net worth.

我的发言权 不应该因为我的财富而增加。

But I don’t think that I do.

但我认为我并没有这样。

You know, my Harvard campaign was not a disinvestment

你知道，我的哈佛运动 并不是要求撤资，

or you know, I never said anything

我从未就是否向哈佛捐款 发表过任何意见。

about making or not making a donation to Harvard.

I don't think they should listen to me more or less,

我认为他们不应该因为我是否捐款 而更多或更少地听我的。

whether I have been a contributor or not.

I think what's given me voice and followers, if you will,

我认为，之所以我能拥有话语权， 且让一些人愿意关注我。

is just my willingness to share points of view on ideas.

是因为我乐于分享对各种观点的看法。

And if people think those ideas are interesting, I get followership.

如果人们觉得我的想法有趣， 他们就会关注我。

If they weren't concerned with what I had to say,

如果他们对我的话不感兴趣， 就不会关注我。

they would not follow me.

But I don't think I have more voice.

但我并不认为我的声音比别人大。

Maybe I'm naive by this, but I think the reason, you know,

也许我在这方面有点天真， 但我认为，

plenty of other people in my industry, of similar economic circumstance

我的许多同行， 尽管我们财富状况相似，

have very little voice because they've not put themselves out there

他们的声音却很小，

因为他们没有公开表达自己的观点。

and they've not shared their views.

And I've done that in some depth.

而我在这方面 已经做了一些深入的工作，

I've been criticized for writing the longest posts in history.

我因为写过历史上 最长的帖子而受到批评。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

But at least you know what I feel with particularity, I guess.

但至少，我觉得 人们能清楚地知道我的具体看法。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

AT: And you certainly invite disagreement.

艾莉森：你鼓励不同的声音，

You invite debate.

你鼓励辩论。

BA: Yeah, I actually put ideas out there to learn,

比尔：是的， 我提出观点是为了学习，

not because I'm trying to impose my will on others.

并不是要把自己的意志强加给别人。

I actually read the comments, even the mean ones,

实际上我会阅读所有的评论， 包括那些不友好的，

because I think it's -- and actually my approach to X, I should call it X,

因为我认为是——实际上， 我对 X 的看法，我应该称之为 X，

is I follow people on both extremes of many important debates,

我会关注许多重要辩论中 观点两极分化的人，

and I try to follow the most articulate, seemingly intelligent ones.

关注那些表达最清晰、 看起来最聪明的人。

And that's how I find the truth, right?

这样我才能找到真相，对吧？

You know, just following people that support my beliefs,

如果只关注那些支持我观点的人，

I don't feel like I'm going to learn very much.

我不觉得会学到太多东西。

Again, going back to the importance of viewpoint diversity at universities,

我想再次强调 在大学里面观点多元化的重要性，

如果你听不到这些，

if you're not hearing, you know,

比如你 18 岁来到哈佛校园，

if you're 18 years old and you show up on the Harvard campus,

你希望听到 从最激进到最保守的各种观点，

you want to hear the full spectrum of views,

from progressive to the most conservative to find truth.

去找到真相。

That's what education is, about finding the truth.

这就是教育的本质——发现真相。

How can you find the truth if there's a limit

如果对可接触的言论有所限制， 你怎么能发现真相？

to what speech is acceptable?

(Applause)

（掌声）

AT: So you will put a provocative position out there,

艾莉森：所以你 提出一个具有挑衅性的立场，

and then you will ask to be challenged, ask to be corrected,

然后让别人 来挑战你，来纠正你，

and you will look for information that challenges what you thought already.

你在寻找那些挑战你观点的信息。

BA: I don't necessarily think it's provocative, right?

比尔：我不觉得 这是有挑衅性的，真的。

I try to put out my points of view on things.

我只是在表达对某些事情的看法。

Other people may find them provocative, but I certainly welcome criticism.

其他人可能会认为这些看法挑衅， 但我绝对欢迎批评，

And, you know, an alternative point of view.

欢迎提出不同的观点。

That's how I learn.

我是我的学习方法。

AT: Alright, so let's go back to this topic of influence.

艾莉森：好的， 让我们回到关于影响力的讨论。

You said you don't think you have disproportionate influence.

你说过不认为自己有过多的影响力。

Certainly something I hear and read about

我经常听到和读到的，

and that is a big topic in current discourse

以及当前讨论的一个热门话题是，

is the excessive influence of wealthy people

富人对我们的民主、对我们的技术

on our democracy, on technology.

You know, the speculation goes on.

你知道，这种猜测一直在继续。

Do you think this is a legitimate source of concern,

你认为这是一个合理的担忧吗？

and if so, are you part of this problem or not?

如果是的话， 你是这个问题的一部分吗？

BA: Yeah, so let me sort of address that two ways.

比尔：好的， 我从两个方面来回答这个问题。

One, I think the notion that you can spend an unlimited amount of money

首先，我认为你可以无限制地

on political campaigns, in effect, through PACs and otherwise,

通过政治行动委员会（PACs）等渠道 在政治竞选中花费巨资，

and you can even do it anonymously, I think is a disaster.

甚至可以匿名这么做， 我认为这是个灾难。

(Applause)

（掌声）

So that's wrong.

这种做法是不对的。

I do think wealthy people can have more influence.

我确实认为 富人可能有更多的影响力，

Absolutely.

这是毫无疑问的。

The point I was making was,

但我之前想表达的是，

I think the influence I've had

我的影响力并不来自于

has not come from because I spent a lot of money

我在某个竞选活动上砸了很多钱，

on you know, an XYZ campaign,

but rather because I put out an idea that had impact.

而是因为我提出了有影响力的观点。

You know, the tweet I wrote on DEI, which is, you know,

比如，我写的那条关于 DEI 的推文，

5,200 words or whatever, has been viewed 36 million times.

大概有 5200 字， 已经被浏览了 3600 万次。

You know, it's probably the most viewed long tweet.

它可能是被阅读次数最多的 长篇推文了。

Maybe the only long tweet, but it's had an impact.

或许也是唯一的长篇推文， 但它产生了影响。

I happened to bump into a governor who said it had an impact

我偶然遇到一位州长，

他说那条推文影响了他们的政策变化。

on changes in policy they made.

But I think it had nothing to do with,

但我认为，

you know, how many stocks I own or anything like that.

我认为这与我拥有多少股票 或类似的事情无关。

AT: I didn't hear an answer to the question.

艾莉森：我没有听到问题的答案。

Do you think this excessive influence

你认为富人在社会中的 这种过度影响力

of rich people in society is a genuine problem,

是一个真正的问题，

or is it exaggerated?

还是被夸大了？

BA: Look, I think the notion that someone can spend,

比尔：我的看法是这样的，

如果，有人花费数亿美元

several hundred million dollars on, you know,

various campaigns at state levels and otherwise

在各种州级竞选中，

and impact, you know,

从而影响各州检察长的政治立场，

the politics of attorneys general around the country,

I think is not a good thing.

那绝对不是好事。

The democratic process should be democratic, right?

民主化本应该是平等的，

In order for it to be democratic, you know,

一人一票才对。

it's kind of one man, one vote.

Now, all that being said, people look at the Elon Musks of the world

而当我们看到埃隆·马斯克这样的人，

and the fact that he had the resources that, you know,

以及他拥有的资源，

profits he made from PayPal is what enabled him to launch Tesla,

他在 PayPal 上获得的利润 使他能够启动特斯拉和 SpaceX 。

you know, and SpaceX.

No venture capitalist would have put up the capital to launch Tesla.

没有风险投资家 愿意投入资金来启动特斯拉。

It was the 100 million from Elon that made that happen.

是马斯克自己的一亿美元 促成了这一切。

I think, you know, Jeff Bezos and Blue Origin.

还有杰夫·贝索斯的蓝色起源，

You know, Avi [Loeb]’s talking about, you know,

以及阿维·勒布（Avi Loeb）所说的， 要用数万亿美元实现的太空探索。

what could be accomplished with four trillion dollars.

那些身家千亿美元的人，

The fact that people who have 100-something billion dollars

愿意投资于太空探索， 这对社会来说是一件非常积极的事情。

are prepared to invest that on space exploration,

I think is a very positive thing for society.

这无疑会带来一定的影响力。

It does have influence and otherwise.

What I worry about is, you know, the political stuff.

I think that Supreme Court decision needs to be reversed.

我认为需要推翻最高法院的裁决。

AT: Alright.

艾莉森：好的。

(Applause)

（掌声）

BA: Ironically, it was Citizens United,

比尔：说来讽刺，

“公民联盟”这个判决， 本意是为了团结公民，

is the decision right?

And it's disunited the citizens.

结果却造成了分裂。

AT: So voices, legitimate within reason,

艾莉森：所以， 我们需要合理的声音——

we need to have --

BA: No, voices legitimate without reason, right?

比尔：不， 我们需要无理由的声音。

You know, free speech,

言论自由，

share your views,

分享你的观点，

and let the most powerful ideas capture the minds.

让最有力量的想法赢得人心。

AT: OK, and you believe that is happening?

艾莉森：你认为 这种情况正在发生吗？

BA: Actually, I'm a big fan of X.

比尔：实际上， 我是 X 的忠实粉丝。

I think it really is an open, free-speech platform.

我认为它确实是一个开放的、 支持言论自由的平台。

And I’ve learned a lot.

我学到了很多东西，

And it’s affected my views, my politics, my insights.

它也影响了 我的看法、政治立场和洞察力。

And I think it’s one of the few places you can go

我认为它是少数几个 可以真正言论自由的地方之一。

and have a true free-speech platform.

You know, the negative is, of course,

你知道，不好的一面是，

you're going to confront hate speech and vile speech

你一定会遇到 一些仇恨言论和恶劣言论，

这是言论自由不可避免的副作用。

and things that are the detritus of free speech.

But I still think it's a very, very good thing.

但我仍然认为 这是一件非常、非常好的事情。

I no longer rely on, you know,

我不再只依赖 《金融时报》、《华尔街日报》、

just the Financial Times, The Wall Street Journal,

《纽约时报》和《经济学人》，

The New York Times and The Economist.

You know, and CNN or whatever, Fox News, whatever media you follow.

还有CNN或任何你关注的媒体， 《福克斯新闻》等等。

And I think being able to kind of custom-select

我觉得能够自主选择

interesting insights

有趣的观点，

is good for humanity.

对人类是有益的。

AT: Amazing.

艾莉森：太棒了。

We need to wrap up, thank you so much.

我们得结束这次对话了，非常感谢你。

(Applause)

（掌声）