How to Fix Two of the Most Broken Systems in the US | Nick Turner | TED

Transcriber:

翻译人员: J Zhong 校对人员: Yanyan Hong

惠特尼·彭宁顿·罗杰斯 （Whitney Pennington-Rodgers）：你好，尼克。

Whitney Pennington-Rodgers: Hi, Nick, thanks so much for being here.

非常感谢你的到来。

尼克·特纳（Nick Turner）： 谢谢你，惠特尼。

Nick Turner: Whitney, thank you.

WPR: For those who aren’t familiar,

惠：以防有些观众没听说过，

could you start by just telling us a little bit about Vera

你能不能先给我们介绍一下“维拉”

and the work you do?

以及你是做什么工作的？

NT: The Vera Institute of Justice is a leading justice reform organization.

尼：维拉司法研究所 是一个重要的司法改革组织。

We seek to transform the criminal legal system and the immigration system.

我们寻求犯罪法律系统和移民系统的变革。

We call it the criminal legal system

之所以叫它犯罪法律体系，

because to call it a criminal justice system

是因为叫它犯罪公正系统

is a little bit of a misnomer.

会有一些歧义。

It doesn't deliver justice.

它并不带来公正。

And we work to transform the immigration system

我们也寻求移民系统的变革， 因为很多问题，

because many of the problems

that we see in the criminal legal system

我们在犯罪司法系统中所见到的问题，

are just the same in the immigration system.

和移民系统中的问题是一样的。

And by transform,

通过变革，

what I mean is to shrink both of those systems

我指缩减这两个系统，

to make sure that they are less brutal than they are right now

来确保它们比现在少一些武断，

and that there's some modicum of justice that's provided.

并能够提供适当的公正。

We work on some of the biggest problems

我们着力解决 在这两个领域中美国所面对的

that are facing the country in these two realms

几个最重大的问题

and try to provide solutions.

并尝试给出解决方案。

So I'll just give you an example of that.

我给你们举个例子。

One of the things that we did over the last years

过去几年我们做的其中一件事

was to participate in a campaign

就是参与到关于

that ended up overturning the congressionally imposed ban

推翻国会对裴尔助学金禁令的 活动中去。

on Pell Grants,

which is federal financial aid for low-income students.

裴尔助学金是联邦政府对 低收入学生的经济援助，

1994, Congress said that those were no longer going to be available

国会于1994年宣布该援助不再适用于

to incarcerated students,

受到监禁的学生。

and we were able to win that back at the end of 2020.

直到2020年底，我们才 为这些学生争取回这笔援助。

And that makes a remarkable difference

如今这一变化对将近2万人

to close to 20,000 people right now

产生了显著的影响，

who have an opportunity to earn a degree,

他们将有机会获得学位，

find a pathway to employment, to higher income,

有办法找到薪水更高的工作

to end intergenerational incarceration,

并终结影响几代人的监禁。

and for people who are concerned about it to save money

还能帮助担心这些的人节省钱，

because there's less recidivism.

因为惯犯还是比较少的。

WPR: I know you do so much more than just that, but I mean,

惠：我知道你们做的 远远比这些多，但是，我是说，

even thinking about the reason we need this sort of thing in this country

在这个国家我们 需要这种改革的理由是什么，

and sort of how our justice system ended up in this space

以及为何我们的司法体系 已经走到了

where this sort of work is even necessary.

离不开这些工作的地步。

Maybe you could describe a little bit about that

或许你可以描述一下这方面

and how it plays into the rest of the world.

以及它是如何影响世界各地的。

NT: Well, there's a little bit of history to tell.

尼：好的，这说起来有点历史了，

I'm not a historian, but I think it's probably something

我不是历史学家， 但我认为大家大概

that all of you are familiar with.

对这个都熟悉。

This system that we have and the roots of it,

我们所拥有的这个体系， 以及它的根基，

they go down to our very bones.

它们深深地烙印在我们的骨子里。

I often describe it as being just as American as apple pie.

我经常这样作比：就像当 谈到美国就想到苹果派，

The system of mass incarceration that we have is just the latest iteration,

我们拥有的大规模监禁体系只是 随着时间迭代了，

the modern iteration of a system of racial subordination in the country.

看似现代但本质上仍是一个国家内 种族主从关系下的体系。

And it manifests and has manifested in different ways in America.

这已经通过不同的方式 在美国体现出来了。

But you can go back to slavery,

但你可以回头去看看奴隶制，

you can go back to the 13th Amendment,

看看第十三条修正案，

which outlawed slavery except for people who were convicted criminally.

在这部修正案中奴隶制被认为是非法的， 但被判有罪的人并不包含其中。

You can think about post-Reconstruction era, 1877 on,

你可以想想美国从1877年开始的 后重建时期，

when the South,

那时候的南方

which didn't have a work force

缺乏劳动力，

because it was deprived of enslaved people,

因为他们丧失了奴役别人的权力，

passed laws, Black Codes,

于是他们通过各种黑人法令，

that made criminal things like standing on a corner,

捏造出一系列“犯罪行为”， 比如把站在角落、

standing on a street, called it loitering.

站在街头这种事列为“游荡罪”。

And then people would be arrested,

人们会因此被逮捕，

and then their bodies would be sold to private industry

随后他们被卖给私人企业，

and leased as labor.

并作为劳动力出售。

So that was our first interaction with mass incarceration in the country.

这就是我们国家第一次实施 大规模监禁。

And if you flash forward 100 years

如果闪回到100年前，

and you re-begin the story in the early 1970s,

故事从20世纪70年代重新书写，

that was our second post-Reconstruction period where,

那是我们的第二次后重建时期。

in response to the gains that were made in the civil rights movement,

作为对民权运动成果的回应，

politicians sought to tap into the frustrations

政客们希望对被激怒的白人选民

of many white voters

展示友好态度，

so that you talk about it sometimes as the Southern Strategy,

所以它有时也被称为南方策略。

and started responding to disorder that was seen in cities

同时他们还对城市中的混乱做出了回应，

and said, "We need to have a war on drugs."

声称“我们需要向毒品宣战”,

"We need to have a war on crime."

“我们需要向犯罪行为宣战”。

And generation of tough-on-crime laws,

在这代人从司法上严厉打击犯罪，

mandatory minimums were put in place.

及法定最短刑期等应运而生。

And that's what we have now.

这也正是我们的现状。

And we went on a sort of stratospheric,

我们类似于在平流层中前进，

700-percent increase in the prison population

从20世纪70年代初到21世纪初，

over the course of the 50 years

在这五十多年里，

between the early '70s and the aughts.

监狱里的人口增长了七倍之多。

And here's the thing that we should know,

我们必须要明确一点：

is that we did it.

这就是我们共同选择的。

This is a product of democracy.

这是民主的一项产物。

It did not have to be this way,

本应不必这样，

but we elected people who promised us

但是我们选举出了那些向我们保证

that safety and order could be delivered

利用我们今天看到的犯罪司法体系

by a criminal legal system that we have today.

可以实现安全与秩序的人们。

WPR: Well, thank you for that.

惠：好的，十分感谢。

I think it's interesting in thinking about this moment right now

我现在对思考这些感到很有兴致，

where I feel like there's so much interest in this subject

我觉得这个话题有很多东西值得关注，

and thinking about justice reform and and how we can fix this system.

像是司法系统改革以及 我们如何去修复这个系统。

And I'm curious to know from you,

然后我也很好奇，

sort of, your thoughts about this moment right now,

就是想了解你对这种情况的想法，

where it is in some ways kind of trendy to support issues around criminal justice.

那些流行的方式可以来帮助解决 这些关于司法系统的问题呢？

NT: I've been doing this work for about 25 years,

尼：我已经从事这项工作大概25年，

one way or another,

不管怎么说，

in direct services at first

先说直接性的工作，

and then in the policy work that Vera does

然后再谈谈关于维拉做的政策性工作。

and you know,

你知道，

I admit that I have seen in the past five or six years

我在过去的五、六年间见证了

that this has become sort of a cause célèbre

这成为了一个热点问题，

and people have gotten excited about it.

人们对此感到忧虑。

I think that that is a fundamentally good thing.

我认为这在根本上是一件好事。

If you remember what I said a moment ago,

如果你还记得我刚才说过，

that this is democracy that created this monster that we have,

民主制造了我们现在的 司法系统这个怪兽，

and so the only way that we will undo it is if people engage.

而唯一的解决办法就是 让人们去参与进去。

And so the mere fact that we have discussions

我们无数次讨论这个问题，

like the one that we're having tonight,

就比如在今天晚上这场活动里，

that you can name a slew of celebrities

你还可以列举很多名人，

from Kim Kardashian to, you know,

从金·卡戴珊

to John Legend, and sort of, list goes on

到约翰·传奇，所有这些，不胜枚举，

who have elevated this issue

都让人们关注到了这个问题，

and made people start to think about it differently,

让大家开始从不同角度来 思考这个问题。

that we have a generation of young people who have grown up

我们年轻一代的年轻人已经伴随着

with the concept of mass incarceration

大规模监禁的观念成长起来，

and understand it's actually not something that is necessary to deliver safety,

而且也理解这种行为既不必要 也不会改善治安问题，

but in fact that there are all sorts of profound costs and burdens

却会产生巨大的成本以及

that are associated with it.

各种与此相关的负担。

So it may feel trendy

所以你可能会感觉这个问题很流行，

because for, you know, up until five or six years ago,

因为直到五六年前这种现象才有所减少，

while many people carried the stigma and the sadness

在那之前很多人都背负着污名， 而且可悲的是

that one in two Americans have a family member

每两个美国人中的一个人， 他就有一个家庭成员

who has been incarcerated --

曾经被监禁过——

that's massive, one in two.

这是很大一个比例， 每两人中就有一人。

This is what we've created,

这就是我们建立的系统，

and a lot of people carry that stigma

很多人都背负着罪名，

and so that people are finally talking about it

而现在人们终于开始讨论这件事，

and calling attention to it is absolutely necessary.

所以引起关于这个问题的注意 是非常必要的。

So I'm OK if people are on trend.

我很高兴大家在关注热点。

WPR: And I'm curious if you feel

惠：我想知道你有没有感觉到

the pandemic in any way has impacted your work

疫情在某种程度上影响了你的工作

or the way that we all should be thinking about justice reform.

或是我们所有人看待司法改革 这个问题的思路。

NT: Well, not enough.

尼：不仅仅如此。

I mean, I think one of the things that happened when the pandemic started

我的意思是说，当疫情发生后，

was that we actually saw a pretty remarkable reaction

我们实际上目睹了监狱系统和警察 以一种颇为出色的方式面对疫情，

on the parts of jail systems and police where we recognize that, you know,

在当时的情况下，

some of the most profound vectors of COVID spread

集体照护中心成为了

were going to be in congregate care facilities.

新冠病毒传播最广的温床之一。

That’s jails and prisons around the country.

这是指国内的监狱和拘留所。

And jail populations dropped about 15 percent

那时监狱的人口下降了大概百分之十五，

because sheriffs were letting go of people,

因为治安官办公室一直在释放囚犯，

judges were not imposing bail,

法官们没有要求保释金，

police were issuing tickets

警察们只会开张罚单

rather than arresting and sending folks to jail.

而不会将人们逮捕进监狱。

And so that was actually a very positive sort of, general reaction to see.

这是我们看到非常正面的， 也是非常普遍的反应。

We've seen those numbers start to tick back up,

我们又看到这个数字开始回升，

so it didn't quite have the durability that we would like it to.

所以这不像我们希望的那样的稳定。

But one of the things

但是我认为

that I think we learned at that moment in time

我们在那个时刻学到的一点

is that it actually didn't cost people anything.

就是这样做不会产生任何损失。

Those decisions could be made,

我们大可以选择这样做，

and people stayed safe.

人们的安全也能够得到保障。

And there was a manifestation that what mattered was, you know,

这体现出来的是

public health over public safety.

公共卫生大于公共安全。

And people’s humanity mattered.

保持人道同时也很重要。

And so it was a remarkable thing to see,

我们认识到这件事非比寻常，

but we've got a lot more work to do.

但我们的工作还会继续。

WPR: And to that point, I guess,

惠：对于这点来说，我猜，

what is the work that we have to do?

什么是我们必须做的呢？

What do you think we do in this moment to fix this system?

关于去修复这个系统， 这一刻你是怎么想的呢？

NT: I think the most important thing that we can do

尼：我认为我们需要做的最重要的事

is to redefine what we think delivers safety

就是重新定义我们认为 会保证安全的措施，

and safety for whom.

以及这对谁而言算是安全。

So we have this pretty simplistic notion in this country.

在这个国家， 我们有以个非常简单的概念。

We grow up talking about bad guys and good guys, cops and robbers.

我们从小到大谈论坏人和好人， 警察和强盗。

We brand people as criminal

我们给做出特定行为的人

for a certain act that they have committed,

贴上罪犯的标签，

as if that is the sum total of who they are.

就认为这就是他们的全部， 定义了他们是谁。

But the formula that we have basically been fed,

这个公式被灌输给我们，

and I think mostly have ingested

在很多人心中根深蒂固，

and tend to embrace as a people, is that if you want safety,

他们倾向于相信， 如果你想要生活在安全之中，

you have to have police and you have to have prosecutors

我们就必须设置警察和检察官

and you have to put people in jail and prison.

来把一些人送进监狱。

But the fact of the matter is,

但是事实上重要的是，

is that we as a country are quite unusual

作为一个国家我们是很不寻常的，

in that we use this, this criminal legal system,

因为我们使用这个犯罪司法系统

to respond to an array of problems and challenges that people have

来处理的大量的问题以及 面对的很多的挑战

that are really non-criminal.

都不是跟犯罪有关的。

So I'll give you one statistic.

我可以给你一组数据。

Every year, about 10.5 million people are arrested in this country.

每年在这个国家， 有一千零五十万人被逮捕。

So that's one every three seconds.

也就是说每三秒中的一秒， 就有一个人被逮捕。

So it just happened again.

就是说此时此刻有人被逮捕。

And it just happened again.

现在又有一个。

And some people might be OK with that,

一些人可能认为这没什么大不了的，

and they think, "Well, you know,

他们会想，“你知道吗，

it's a violent country, there are a lot of guns out there."

这是一个暴力的国家， 很多人持有枪械。”

But when you look at statistics, one of the things that we see

但是如果你去观察数据， 我们能看到一个事实：

is that only five percent of those arrests are for violent crime.

只有百分之五的被逮捕者涉嫌暴力犯罪。

An 80 percent -- 80 percent --

而百分之八十——

so we're talking eight million of those arrests,

请注意我们总共有八百万的被捕者，

which means people going to jail,

就是那些被送进监狱，

getting a record that's going to make it hard for them to get a job,

留下一条让他们求职受阻的 犯罪记录的人，

are for conduct that's associated with poverty,

普遍被捕原因是贫困，

homelessness, mental illness and substance use.

无家可归，心理疾病和药物滥用。

And so we're investing in this apparatus

所以我们投资的这个系统

that sucks people into the system

只会把人生吞进去，

that isn't well adapted to address these complex problems,

不适合来处理一些复杂的社会问题，

because many of these things are public health problems.

因为这些很多都是公共卫生问题。

Homelessness -- we should have supportive housing.

对于无家可归者—— 我们应该建设帮助性住房。

Why would we lock someone up?

为什么我们要把人关起来？

If someone is decompensating,

如果有人代谢失偿，

would we rather have two people with side arms pop out of a car

我们是需要两个带着枪的 人从车上跳出来

and address that situation,

来解决这个问题，

or we'd rather have a trained person

还是说找来一个受过训练的

who actually knows how to de-escalate

真正知道如何处理压力

and understands mental illness

和理解心理疾病的人来

and connect that person to the right kind of system?

联系那个病人，把他送到正确的地方？

So what we need to do

所以我们需要做的是

is invest less in this massive apparatus

减少对于这个庞大系统的投资，

and invest in the things that we know will actually provide

去投资一些我们知道真正能提供

the kind of safety and the thriving

社会安全和繁荣，

and far less harm than what we currently have.

且比我们现有体制危害更小的系统。

So it has to be a fundamental, sort of, reordering of how we think about things.

它必须能从根本上重构 我们思考这个问题的方式。

We have to be deprogrammed.

我们必须改变观念。

And then we have to go out and we have to act

然后我们必须走出去、 去做出行动、

and we have to vote on that

为此投票、

and we have to participate in local elections

参与到地方的地区检察官和

for district attorneys and sheriffs

治安官的选举、

and demand these kinds of changes.

强烈要求去实现这些改变。

And demand from mayors and governors

还去要求市长们和州长们

that they invest in public health and invest in communities

为我们的公共卫生和我们的社区投资，

rather than in the systems that end up harming them.

而不是去投资一个终将伤害我们的系统。

WPR: So what you're describing

惠：所以你描述的其实是

is really this idea of decarceration and defunding the police,

一个减少监禁和 减少给警察拨款的思路，

which has gotten a lot of air time in the past, you know, year or two.

这个思路在媒体上流行了大概一两年。

And I think there are definitely people

我认为肯定也有些人

who think that this idea feels either too pie-in-the-sky,

认为这个点子就像是天上掉馅饼一样 不太可能发生，

that it’s too far from where we are right now as a nation to get there.

认为这对于我们国家来说还太遥远 很难达到。

And other people who maybe just feel

另一些人可能会觉得

like this just isn't the right way to go about fixing these issues.

这不是一个很好的解决方案。

And so I'm curious what you would say to skeptics.

所以我非常好奇你对这些持怀疑论的人 有什么看法。

NT: Well, you know, I mean,

尼：事实上，你知道，我的意思是，

the first thing that I would recognize is that, you know --

首先，我认为——

so the language of defund is intentional, you know, provocation.

主张撤资是有意识的， 你知道，可以被理解为挑衅。

And it sort of sharpened the issue.

在某种程度上会使问题变得尖锐。

And I think that in the political context,

这个问题跟政治背景有关，

Democrats have been very effectively trolled by Republicans

民主党一直被共和党所牵制着、

and have been tagged with the issue.

一直被贴上关于这个问题的标签。

But if you really stop and you look at it,

如果你停下来重新审视一下这个问题，

if I were to talk to you and I say,

如果我跟你说，

look, we're spending 115 billion dollars a year on policing.

看，我们每年在警察系统上 花费一千一百五十亿美元。

In major cities in this country, we're spending 30 percent to 40 percent,

在我国的主要城市，这占了一个城市 预算的百分之三十到四十，

sometimes 50 percent on policing of a city budget.

有时甚至会达到百分之五十。

Not on housing,

不是花在住房上，

not on public health,

不是花在公共卫生上，

not on substance abuse care and not on mental health care,

不是花在药物滥用护理上， 更不是花在心理健康护理上，

on policing.

而是花在了警察部门上。

And by the way,

顺便说一句，

80 percent of the things that the police are stopping people for

在警察出警百分之八十的情况里，

are for conduct that relates to poverty and homelessness

嫌疑人的行为是由贫穷、无家可归、

and mental illness and substance use.

心理健康和药物滥用问题导致的。

Does that make sense to you?

你们觉得这合理吗？

Is that how you want to spend dollars?

你们打算这样支配预算吗？

Is that what you believe is the right return on investment for societies?

你们认为这样对建设社会有帮助么？

First of all, I think it's important you have to listen to people.

首先，我认为听取意见是很重要的。

And if they're fearful about crime,

如果居民们很害怕犯罪，

you've got to acknowledge that that might be the case.

你必须承认那可能发生。

And certainly in communities where we've seen a lot of crime,

毫无疑问，在一些犯罪多发的社区里

people do have a right to be fearful.

人们有权利去感觉到恐惧。

I come to this work

我做这个工作

because of my commitment to racial justice and equity.

是因为我致力于建设 种族司法公正和平等。

Others on the other side of the aisle might not.

其他人基于他们的立场 可能不这么想。

They might come to it for civil liberty reasons

他们可能出于公民自由来考虑，

that, you know, they want to shrink the size of government,

他们想要缩小政府的体积，

they don't like government overreach,

他们不想要政府过度干涉，

they are concerned about how government spends its money.

他们关心政府如何去用这笔钱。

So I think it's important to figure out how to meet people where they're at

所以我认为在面对不同的人时 搞清楚如何随机应变是很重要的，

to have the conversation that obviously requires listening first.

在与他们谈话时显然需要先去倾听。

And then the last thing that I'll say

我最后会强调的一点是

is that I would urge people to do exactly as we've done tonight,

我鼓励大家 照我们今晚的讨论结果去行动，

which is to recognize the humanity of people

我们要承认人性的存在，

and to, you know, again,

以及，事实上，

one in two Americans have had a family member who was incarcerated.

两个美国人中的一个 就有一个人拥有被监禁过的家庭成员。

And so I know there are people in this audience

所以我知道在我们的听众里

who have experienced that,

有人经历过监禁，

who have maybe stuffed it away

必须将这段经历埋藏在心里，

and are challenged by, you know,

还得努力尝试去

coming to terms with that stigma.

与这些污名达成和解。

But for us to remember what we would like for our sons and our daughters,

但我们要记住我们希望为我们的儿女，

or our brothers or our fathers,

或是兄弟、父辈留下的是什么，

and to start from that perspective.

我们得从这个角度去考虑问题。

So I would try to engage people on a human empathetic level.

所以我希望大家都能够 从人类同理心的角度去理解。

WPR: And just, I guess, as a final thought here.

惠：作为结语，我想问，

Do you feel hopeful, I guess, about this moment?

对于现在的时局，你有信心吗？

Do you feel like we're moving in the right direction?

你认为我们在进步吗？

NT: Most days.

尼：大多数时候，是的。

Most days, I feel hopeful.

大多数时候我有信心。

I mean, I talked about the deep roots of this system that we have,

我在讨论我们体制里那些 根深蒂固的东西，

and I talked about the fact

以及民主事实上

that this is something that democracy chose,

选择了这样的体制，

that we all chose,

我们都参与了这个选择，

that we can unchoose it, and we can act differently.

但我们可以摒弃它， 我们可以用行动来反对它的。

I think it will take a long time.

我认为这会花费很长时间。

I'm very hopeful again that we're having the kinds of conversations

但既然我们今晚在此谈论了这个问题，

that we are having tonight,

我还是愿意相信

that people are engaging.

人们正在参与和关注。

I see movement on the policy level,

我能看到政策上出现了少许改变，

but I'm also not tricked into believing that it will be easy.

但我也不认为这项运动将会一帆风顺。

And some of the same tools that we have seen

我们见识过那些

that have created this apparatus --

创造了这个系统的工具——

the fear mongering,

比如贩卖恐惧，

you know,

你懂的，

sort of the iconography of gang bangers and, you know,

就是刻画出一些地痞流氓、

cities of carnage and Willie Horton

危机四伏的城市以及像威利·霍尔顿 （Willie Horton）那样的罪犯，

and all of these, sort of, the things that fueled this movement --

这些的行为

I see that again today.

我今天又一次见到了。

I see that on headlines.

我在头版上看见了。

My mother-in-law visited for a while,

我的丈母娘来访期间

she watched a lot of Fox News,

经常看福克斯新闻频道，

I saw it 24 hours a day.

我每天 24 小时都能看到。

And so that's dangerous.

结论就是，这个系统很危险。

And so that makes me remember what, you know,

这些新闻总是提醒着我，

what a task we have ahead of us

我们还有许多未尽的工作，

and how much we're really going to have to lean in and to be resilient,

我们还得继续投入、继续坚持，

to claim victories when we can.

最终才会取得胜利。

But to wake up the next day and know that we're going to have to reach harder

但我们每天都应该记住 我们还得继续尝试、

and stronger to get more done.

继续努力。

WPR: Thank you so much, Nick, you've given us a lot to think about.

惠：非常谢谢你，尼克， 你给了我们很多启发。

Thank you for being here tonight.

非常感谢你今晚的到来。

NT: Thank you, Whitney, it's a pleasure.

尼：谢谢你，惠特尼，这是我的荣幸。

(Applause)

（掌声）