Taking the IELTS Speaking Test┃Learn American English Pronunciation On the Go

Rachel: In today’s Episode,  

David and I sit down with our friend  Eliot Freisen, who works for Magoosh,  

the test prep company, as their IELTS Expert. IETLS is a test that you can take to assess  

your level of English. Even for people  who have no plans to take this test,  

Eliot has amazing tips on how to speak with more fluency as he breaks down how the speaking section  

of the IELTS test is scored. If you would like a free copy of the transcript for this episode,  

just visit RachelsEnglish.com/podcast and search for this episode. Let’s get started.

Well, Eliot, thanks for coming on the podcast.  

Eliot: It's my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Rachel: So, can you tell me, what is your current job title? 

Eliot: So, I'm the IELTS expert at Magoosh. Uh,  

the IELTS curriculum manager. And so, I'm, uh, I put together the IELTS training program, and the  

IELTS is the, uh, international English language testing system. It's one of the major exams people  

take to usually get into graduate school or, um, into, get—some jobs require IELTS scores,  

and even immigration, um, some, some countries require an IELTS score for immigrations purposes.  

So, at Magoosh, we create a training program for students to help them to prepare for that exam.

Rachel: Does the U.S. require that test and a score?

Eliot: The U.S. does not require  

an IELTS score. Um, in the U.S., the IELTS is primarily used by universities and some companies,  

uh, asking for a score from international  applicants. So, in the, in the United States,  

the IELTS and then also the TOEFL exam are the two main exams that universities use to,  

uh, when, uh choosing which, uh,  students to accept to the universities.

Rachel: Do you know, is one of them  

used more right now for colleges and universities? Or are they kind of equally useful at this point?

Eliot: Um, so, uh, in the United States,  

traditionally, the TOEFL has been the main  exam that universities ask for. However,  

in the last 10 years or so, um, many schools have chosen to accept both TOEFL and IELTS scores. Uh,  

and so, the number of schools that accept IELTS scores in the United States is increasing. Uh,  

if we're considered, considering it globally,  the IELTS is, uh, much more common outside  

of the United States. Um, and, uh, that's  primarily because it's, um, created by, uh,  

British, Australian, uh, and, um, Canadian,  uh, organizations, and they have a much more  

international focus. And traditionally, schools have used that exam outside of the United States  

for the same purposes that, uh, American  schools have used the TOEFL exam. So, um,  

it's, it's really becoming, in the United  States, it's becoming sort of mixed now.  

Outside of the United States, IELTS is definitely the more common exam students will have to take.

Rachel: Got it.

David: And so, can you sort of trace for us  how you arrived here? You have this  

really specific expertise, and just kind of  walk us through how you got where you are.

Eliot: Well, I've been, most of my career,  

I've, uh, taught English at, uh, at the college level. I've worked primarily in, uh, ESL programs,  

uh, at the Universe of California Irvine, and  then in the city colleges system in Chicago. Uh,  

so for the past 10 years or so, that's,  uh, primarily what I've been doing. Um,  

I got my start teaching English, uh,  after college. I, uh, lived in Pittsburgh,  

Pennsylvania, and I worked for a year with the Greater Pittsburgh Literacy Council and taught,  

uh, I taught, um, second language learners  there. And really, just fell in love with  

it. I love language generally. I studied Dutch and German and Spanish, uh, in college. And so,  

language was an interest of mine. And then, the more I worked with people trying to learn my  

native language, uh, I, I just became fascinated  in the process of how people learn languages.

Um, and so, in the, in the course of that time, I taught mainly writing classes and grammar classes  

at the college level, but I also, uh, at,  at those positions, I would always sort of  

gravitate towards the, um, curriculum development committees that these schools would have, or,  

uh, which, which would put together sort of departmental exams, things like that. I've,  

I've always had sort of an interest in, in exams, uh, and how people assess language and how people  

can sort of measure things like that. And, um, so, sort of gravitated towards that and picked up some  

experience teaching about the IELTS and TOEFL along the way as well. And so, when the, when  

I found this job here at Magoosh, it just felt  perfect, because it, it sort of combines a lot  

of my own interests and sort of the subspecialty I'd sort of developed for myself along, uh, along  

the way. So, anyway, uh, I was really excited to, to get started, uh, at Magoosh in this job.

David: That's great,  

and so, when did you start? How long  have you been with Magoosh, then?

Eliot: Uh, it's, it's been nearly a year, and  

when they brought me on, uh, the, um, uh, Magoosh had a full and well-developed, uh, TOEFL program,  

and their GRE, it's another exam. It's not related to English, but, uh, their GRE exam and their GMAT  

exams have been around for years. But they didn't have an IELTS program at all. So, they brought me  

on to develop that. And, and so, that's what I've been doing every since last November.

Rachel: I'm so interested in the pronunciation here. I,  

you know, I'm not in the test prep world. I'm not that familiar with tests. So, you're saying,  

IELTS. You're saying the acronym. You're, like, making all of the sounds into an actual word. But,  

for anyone who’s not sure what he's saying, it's the I- E-L-T-S exam. Is that standard?  

Does everyone call it IELTS?

Eliot: Yeah, well, the, the full  name, I think I said earlier,  

the International English Language Testing  System is kind of a mouthful. And so—

Rachel: It is.

Eliot: Yeah, so,  

so, most people will just call it, uh,  IELTS. And, yeah. So, we've sort of made  

that— you're right. We've made that into  a word, and it sort of lives on its own.

Rachel: Right. Now, let’s  

talk scores. I know the, sort of, lowest score that an American university might take is a 5.5.  

Now, in, in your opinion, is a 5.5—if, if I get a  5.5, are my English skills actually good enough to  

be able to participate in a college or university program? Or would I be struggling, do you think?

Eliot: That's a, a very interesting question, and a,  

and kind of a complicated one to answer, um, because, um—well, first of all, the IELTS score,  

there's a general score. It has, the IELTS  has four sections to the exam. The speaking,  

listening, writing, and reading. So, a student is going to receive an overall score, which is  

an average of the, those four section scores. And then, it's going to be broken down into,  

uh, where each section receives a score.  And so, um, the, the answer is complicated,  

because some programs are going to require really intensive writing skills, let's say. And they,  

to do well in that program, if you're studying history, for example, you're going to be writing  

a lot of 20- to 30-page papers, right?  So, a student who scores, uh, a 5.5, uh,  

but does extremely well on the writing portion, it's just the other portions were bringing them  

down, that might be something that a school would take into account and say, well, you're,  

you're, you have strong scores in, in writing, and that's really something important for this  

program. Maybe we can find ways for you to bump up your, your abilities in some of these other areas.

Rachel: Yeah.  

Um, you brought up the four sections.  Are they ranked equally in, like,  

giving a final score? Or are some  deemed more important than others?

Eliot: From the IELTS, from the exam’s perspective,  

they are all treated equally. So, the exam  measures each one separately, and then gives you  

that overall score. Um, and, so, uh, sort of as a, I was alluding to earlier, each institution may  

prioritize, uh, different part of your score and  may wish—I, it's, it's very quite common, in fact,  

to see a school say, well, we require a 7.5 on writing for our program, but if you score, um, if  

you score a 6.5 or a 6 in, let's say, listening or one of these other areas, that's perfectly fine.  

Rachel: That makes sense.

Eliot: Your students may be interested in  

the speaking section, is different from a lot of other exams, um, that are out there. And actually,  

it's one reason why a lot of American schools, uh, have, are not accepting the IELTS exam, uh, um,  

in addition to the TOEFL exam, which is that the speaking section is an, an, an in-person  

interview. It's a, uh, the interview lasts  11 to 15 minutes. You meet one-on-one with,  

uh, an IELTS representative who, who tests  you. And compared to the TOEFL, the TOEFL,  

you sit in front of a computer and record  answers into a microphone on the computer. Um—

Rachel: Okay, wow. That is very different.

Eliot: It's quite different. And, and so,  

for some students, you know, um, some students really like to have the TOEFL format where it's  

impersonal. Maybe they feel less pressure, uh, because they can just sort of speak answers into a  

microphone. I know that for other students, having that interpersonal dynamic of the conversation,  

uh, actually is something that can help some students to sort of feel less nervous about the,  

the process. So, that's another, yet another  thing here that kind of differs among,  

you know, different will prefer one  thing or the other. But I would say,  

if, if you're applying to a school in the United States and you have a strong preference for one  

style of speaking over the other, uh, you, you might want to choose which exam you take based on,  

on that kind of thing, because that can  make a big difference in your score.

Rachel: Yeah, definitely.

David: So, Eliot,  

in terms of those speaking, those people taking that, the IELTS and, and doing a in- person  

speaking piece, what, what is being assessed? How is it being assessed? You know, sort of,  

I'm just trying to picture what that  would be look—what that would look like.

Eliot: Well, the, so, when  

you're in this room with the person interviewing you, they have a script of questions that they're,  

they're sort of standardized questions  that they're supposed to ask you. And,  

and they do use your cues a little bit. You  know, some speakers are, are not going to  

be very fluent. And so, they are not going to give long answers, and the, the person leading  

the interview is trained to sort of lead that  interview in a particular direction. Uh, and then,  

people who are more fluent will probably answer fewer questions in the 11 to 15 minutes they have,  

because they're able to, to, uh, speak at  length about certain topics. Um, and so—  

Rachel: Does that affect the score, would you say?

Eliot: It does—

Rachel: If you're just  

giving really short answers, does  that show, okay, not quite there?

Eliot: Well, so, they've anticipated that, and, um,  

the, the, the speaking exam has three parts. And the first part is just really kind of a small talk  

section, where it's perfectly fine to give one- or two- sentence answers. They might ask you about,  

let's say, what's, you know, what's your favorite  food and who did most of the cooking in your house  

growing up? And really, things that you might, uh, discuss with somebody normally if you've, even if  

you have basic language skills, you might just have that kind of small talk conversation with  

someone, if you're living abroad or something like that. So, short answers are fine there, but then,  

in the middle section, you're supposed to give a, a one- to two-minute sort of monologue, uh,  

speech about a topic they provide. And there's no way around it there. You have to speak for  

that long, or your score will be docked down, uh, significantly. Then, the last part, they ask kind  

of open-ended and abstract questions. You know, so, you're supposed to analyze something. And  

there again, if you give a one- or two-sentence answer, you're just not going to give the full  

answer that's necessary, and that is another thing that will bring your score down. Um—

Rachel: Can you give  

some examples of the one-minute prompt, and then the longer questions that you might get asked?

Eliot: Sure. So, um, um, the, the one- to two-minute  

prompt might be something like, um, talk about a, the, the, the question—for, and they give you the  

question in writing. They give you a kind of card or a sheet of paper with it, and they say, okay,  

you've got a little bit of time to look at this  and prepare an answer. So, they give you a minute  

to look at the question. And it might be something like, um, talk about a person who influenced your  

life significantly. And then, they give you some bullet points about that. You, so, they'll say,  

you must describe how you met this person, what they taught you, and how it's impacted  

your life moving forward. Okay, so, it's going to be something like that. And your job is to cover  

each of those points, and then to create a, sort of the last question is always a little more open,  

and that's what you sort of speak at length about, and you're supposed to talk for at least  

a minute or two about, you know, how you would answer each of those points for the question.

And then, so, so, that's part two of the IELTS speaking exam. Then, part three is going to be  

related to that. So, the topic’s going to be  related. So, after you've given your monologue,  

the person doing the interview will transition. And so, for the example question about a person  

who impacted your life, they might ask you then a follow-up question like, what are the qualities  

of, um, you know, a person that you admire? Or what are the main qualities of, like, uh,  

somebody who would be a hero? Or something like that. So, it's related to the topic,  

but you can see from the question, you  would have to use more advanced vocabulary,  

and you'd have to speak at length to be able to describe what kind of characteristics a  

person like that would have. And that just  takes a more complicated language to do.

David: Wow. And  

not only that, but you're,  I mean, there's a demand to  

be reflective as well as you search for  the vocabulary that you want to pull up.

Eliot: Precisely.

David: I mean, that, that's, that's pretty high-level.

Eliot: It's tough. It's tough, and, and,  

it's a common occurrence. You could imagine, you know, you're sitting there, I, as native speakers,  

we might need a couple seconds to think of what  we truly would want to say, right? I mean, it's  

not like that kind of answer is on the tip of your tongue in daily life. So, that's another thing,  

too. I mean, it's just a normal thing on essay questions or on speaking questions. Sometimes,  

you need time to think. So, it's part of the  preparation for students to get used to that  

sort of format and trying to practice thinking on their toes about these things. And then, frankly,  

sometimes you, you just need to say the thing that comes to your head first, even if it's not  

your true opinion about something. If you, if you had a whole day to think about something,  

you probably would say something different than you would on the top of your head for almost  

anything you're going to say, right? And so, you get practice at sort of saying, okay, this is the  

first thing I can talk about. You know, they're not grading you on whether you're going to be  

right or wrong or whether they like your answer or not. They're grading your language skills. So,  

you just find something to say, and that's  what you talk about, uh, on an exam like this.

David: And what a  

great example on why it would be helpful  to practice. You know, just that, not,  

not trying to search for what do I truly, at my core, want to say about this? But to just say,  

go with the first thing that can make sense  in the situation. But that's different than  

how we normally think and talk. So,  that, practicing would certainly help.

Eliot: Absolutely. Yeah, no, and, and the  

more you can do this kind of thing, even if it's on your own, you know, even if you're just sitting  

in front of a mirror and looking at questions, or, or you have a friend who doesn't speak English  

natively—okay, that's, you know, obviously, it’d be wonderful to have a teacher or a native speaker  

interviewing you on a regular basis. But even if you get a list of questions, um, this is something  

we put, we have at, at Magoosh. We have, we have a long, we've created a really long list of IELTS  

speaking questions that students can take and give to a friend or something like that. And,  

even if they don’t speak English natively, that friend can ask the questions, you get a chance  

within a time limit or how, whatever you can do to set up the realistic conditions of the test, to  

answer those questions. It can be really helpful practice, uh, to prepare for an exam like this.

Rachel: Awesome tips. Um,  

so, oh, right. I have a two-part question.  What are you being graded on specifically?  

Is it vocabulary? Pronunciation? Grammar? All of them together? And knowing what exactly,  

um, the grader is looking for, what kind of tips can you give people for getting a better score?

Eliot: Great. So, there are four main  

areas of speaking, uh, skill that the IELTS are looking for and grading you on. So, we could go  

through sort of quickly each, each of those four, and then maybe a couple tips about each of those.

Rachel: Perfect.

Eliot: So, so, the first one would be,  

uh, fluency and coherence, they call it. So,  fluency is probably something that, uh, most of  

your listeners will be aware of. It's, it's how,  uh, well you're able to speak at a rate of speed  

that would feel natural to a native speaker. And, and coherence is about how well you can link ideas  

together. Non-native speakers who do not, who are sort of at the intermediate level or not extremely  

advanced with their skills often struggle to, to string ideas together in a logical way. So,  

getting from idea A to idea B to C in a way that, that pulls all those ideas together and really  

makes sense logically kind of like you would see, you know, writing a paragraph, right? Do each of,  

all, all writing teachers want to look for,  okay, okay, do all the ideas in your paragraph  

make sense together? Are they linked together logically? Well, we do that in speaking, too. And,  

um, that is something that they're trying to  measure on the IELTS exam, okay? So, one of  

the things you can work on, for fluency—all right, fluency, uh, is, is a complicated skill. Uh, you  

cannot get better at fluency without speaking all the time, even if it's to yourself. You need to  

take practice questions and not just think about what you would say, but actually say those things.

Rachel: Thank you for saying that,  

because I'm constantly telling my students, just say it out loud. It must be out loud.

Eliot: It's a, it's like exercise. It's not like a,  

a knowledge that you acquire from a book and you could spit back out on a test, right? It's like—  

Rachel: Preach it. This is exactly what I always say.

Eliot: There we go. It's like playing a  

sport or it's like playing an instrument much more than it is like learning something that you could,  

that you could write in an essay, okay? So,  it's training the mouth. It's training the  

connections in the brain so that you are able to say things in a rapid pace, right? And you cannot  

do that in theory. It has to be in practice.  And so, saying things over and over and over,  

even if it's to yourself, is really important  to do, uh, for, for developing fluency. Um,  

for coherence, I think, um, you know, you can do things like study, um, sort of logical connecting  

words. So, transition words. There are many, many lists of those on the Internet, uh, that students  

can find and, and I would be happy to share some of the resources I provide to students for that.

Um, but, finding ways to, uh, connect  ideas together. Coherence is also,  

though, about grammar, in a way, because it involves things like using pronouns accurately,  

right? When you talk about a person and then you, you later, uh, a sentence or two later say he or  

she or it or whatever, you're referencing that idea that came before. Uh, for intermediate and  

lower-level English speakers, that is tough to do, and it's tough to keep all those things in mind,  

uh, but it is part of your ability to sort of,  uh, pull sentences together logically and to do  

so without repeating yourself and being redundant, using the same words over and over and over again.

Rachel: That's interesting. I wouldn't have  

thought about that. I think that's something that we take for granted as native speakers,  

that we, we just naturally use she after we've already established we're talking about Laura  

or whatever. And I, you know, I've got to  say, I never had thought about that before.

Eliot: Yeah.

Rachel: Also, you know,  

the fact that you said there are these  long lists of connector phrases, that's  

also something I wouldn't have thought,  oh, go find those and study. Um, Eliot,  

you had mentioned that you have lists for those. Is that right, that you've found? I'll put a link  

to that in the show notes along with other  important links for follow up materials. So,  

anyone who’s listening can go to the website, look for the show notes, and find those links.

Eliot: Cool. So, to continue,  

then, uh, on, there are three other areas of, of grading that they do on the speaking exam. Uh,  

the next one would be lexical resource. Um, lexical resource is a fancy way of saying,  

uh, how much vocabulary do you know? And how accurately can you use it? Um, and so, uh,  

do you use words appropriately, right? So,  uh, uh, we, we probably all thought of a  

time when we've tried to use a word in  a language that we don’t know very well,  

and it wasn't, maybe it was, according to the dictionary, the meaning seemed to fit well,  

but then somebody was like, you know, we don’t really use that word that way. Okay, well, on the  

IELTS, that's a common thing, that people have studied vocabulary for a long, long time, and,  

uh, you know, and so, that's great, but maybe they use words, uh, in an inappropriate context. In a,  

in a context that a native speaker would not. So, that's at the really advanced level. At  

the lower levels, they're just looking for,  do you have to repeat words over and over?

Or do you have to, do you have to really talk about an idea and kind of dance around the idea,  

but not talk about it directly because you  don’t have all the vocabulary you need to  

really be precise with your language, okay? And so, that's what lexical resource is. And so,  

the really, really, the, the key for that  is to study vocabulary every single day. Um,  

I always advise students in general, but  also, especially ones training for an exam,  

you should try to learn 15 new words every day. Uh, more than that is too, is too tough. Uh,  

it's too difficult for most people to remember on a daily basis, right? So, if you're studying  

20 to 25 words a day, research shows that you're probably not going to retain a lot of what you're  

studying. Fifteen seems to be, 15 to 20 seems like sort of the magic number for most people  

in terms of how many new words you can kind of acquire and retain, uh, on a regular basis.

Rachel: And as part of  

this vocabulary, um, like, testing that the  grader is doing, do idioms matter? I mean,  

someone, um, asked a question recently about, should I use idioms? Can I use slang? Should I  

stay away from those? I said, definitely  idioms are fine if you know how to use  

them. What's your opinion on using slang? And also, if someone uses an idiom really well,  

does that sort of count extra versus just a  regular vocabulary word? Or not necessarily?

Eliot: Yes,  

I think idioms are wonderful to use. And,  so, um, as long, uh, my advice would be for  

the IELTS exam, would be, you know, don’t  use extremely informal language, right?

Rachel: Well, and slang. Would you stay away from slang as  

well? Like, if someone was describing a party as lit or, I, I don't know. This is the ones that's  

coming to mind. Like, would you say, stay away from slang in general in this testing environment?

Eliot: Yes. Yeah, and  

that's a great example, yeah. I, I would not say that. And, and honestly, you know, they, they're,  

most of the topics they're going to provide  do not lend themselves well to using slang.

Rachel: Yeah.

Eliot: You know, you're not going to be  talking about parties, you know.

Rachel: Right. Unfortunately.

Eliot: Yeah. But idioms are different. Uh,  

idioms do show, as, as long as they're not too informal, right? If this is something that you  

could see yourself saying to your employer or something that you could see yourself saying to  

a college professor without, uh, feeling strange about it or worrying that you're going to offend  

them, uh, that might be a good rule of thumb to use about what's appropriate or not. And if you  

can use idiomatic language well, it does show a, a level of mastery that, that is a good thing.

Rachel: Okay.

Eliot: Yeah.

Rachel: Like, you just used rule of thumb perfectly.

Eliot: There we go.

Rachel: Perfectly, masterfully. Um, and actually,  

one question that I get a lot—well, I get people saying, when I'm teaching somebody and I say, you  

know, in spoken English, it's perfectly acceptable to use the word gonna, even if you're talking in a  

work environment. You know, we're gonna be meeting at 4:00. I say, don’t write it, but in speaking,  

it's just completely natural and, and perfect. And I have some people saying, that's not good  

English. What's your opinion in, you know, when the, in the testing environment here, when they're  

being graded, if someone says, well, you know, I'm gonna talk about my mom, and they, and they use  

going to reduced to gonna. Is that something that they think is okay? I'm assuming it is.

Eliot: Yes, it is,  

and it, that will not raise any eyebrows. It all, I think you can say, you can clip words and say,  

you know, cuz instead of because. When you're speaking fluently, okay, and that, that can  

make it complicated. You know, some, it's, it's a really tough thing that our students are trying to  

navigate, and I have a lot of empathy for them, because when you're, when you are speaking,  

uh, really fluently, uh, but you use structures that are maybe, um, that, where you, you, you're  

intentionally not trying to say things like that, like going to or is not instead of isn't. I know  

some students try to not even contract words when they're speaking at all that would be  

normal contractions even in writing. So, um, when you do that, you run the, you have the  

risk of sounding too formal, and that your speech sounds too choppy and not like a native speaker.  

If you are not very fluent and your skills  are lower, but you do try to clip things,  

like, you say cuz and, and, or you, you know, you, you do try to, to clip words off a little  

bit, then, because you're not quite as  fluent yet, then it can sound strange.

Rachel: Right.

Eliot: Uh, because it,  

you're clipping words when the rest of your speech isn't very fluent, either, right? I don't know if—

Rachel: Right. It's like—

Eliot: That makes sense.

Rachel: The reductions make  

sense as part of a smoother, more fluent  speech. Actually, Eliot, you brought up,  

um, contractions. It's reminding me of this  hilarious video series that Tom Kelly made up,  

came up with, where we said a dialogue  using no contractions whatsoever. And then,  

we said it again using normal contractions, and we dressed up in formal clothing for the  

one with no contractions. Just, because  it doesn't seem, it's so unnatural.

Eliot: It is.

Rachel: And the put  

the two next to each other to show people,  you know, this is not bad English. This is  

wonderful conversational English. I will  make sure that I link to that playlist.

Eliot: That's great. And, and, and to be clear, I, I kind  

of was describing how I have empathy for students, because it is a tough thing when you're thinking  

about, let's say, how you're going to speak on the speaking exam for the IELTS. But there's no doubt  

about it. Students should be learning how to make their speech sound more fluent, just like native  

speakers would. And part of that is, is using all of those features of spoken language where native  

speakers are using contractions, they're clipping off words, they're doing all these things.  

Students should be practicing that, because that is how you're going to end up sounding very,  

very fluent in the long run.

Rachel: Right. Like, learning those little specific things will help you get the bigger picture.

Eliot: Absolutely, yep. So, the third category, then,  

of, that they're looking for in IELTS speaking is, uh, grammar. They call it grammatical range  

and accuracy. And what they're looking for with this category is that you can use, of course,  

grammatical structures with accuracy. You're  not making a lot of grammar mistakes. Um, now,  

a few here and there are not a huge deal, and they  will not bring your score down significantly. Uh,  

the ones that cause problems are, uh, ones that get in, interfere with your meaning. Interfere  

with understanding what you mean. Or if you're doing something consistently, like, uh, not using,  

uh, past tenses, for example. That's a common thing that, when people are nervous and speaking  

another language, they remember the verbs, but they can't quite put together how to conjugate  

them well. Uh, and so, they're looking for  that kind of thing when determining your  

grammar score. Um, so, accuracy is a piece of that. The range is, then, another piece.

And that, that's basically, you know, do you—so,  do you use the same sentence structures over and  

over? And are they simple sentence structures? Or, or do you have mastery of more complicated,  

uh, sentence structures? So, a very simple  sentence structure that's common among  

intermediate to lower-level students would  be to use the be verb over and over, right,  

as your main verb. So, sentences that include, like, am, is, are, was, were as your main verb. 

And that pattern is repeated over and  over and over in your speaking. And this  

also applies to writing as well. Students  who are, uh, are using that pattern, uh,  

consistently will get marked down a little bit, because it’ll appear as though they don’t have  

mastery of more complicated structures. Examples of more complicated sentence structures would be,  

um, can you accurately begin a sentence with  something like, uh, even though or although,  

right? If you do that, you're going to  have to have a complex sentence, okay?

It's going to have to have two subjects and two verbs in it, and we don’t need to go into the  

grammar of that, but that would be an example of a type of sentence that would show you have mastery  

of more complicated sentence structures, right? And then, using different verbs, using different,  

you know, using your adverbs well to describe things instead of using adjectives all of the  

times and focusing on descriptions of nouns. That tends to be a more basic thing that  

language learners do. Using adverbs and adverbial structures, right, using things to describe time  

and, and how actions occurred, that tends to be something that comes a little later in language  

development. So, they're looking for things  like that to assess your ability with grammar.

David: So, Eliot,  

that seems like it would be extremely difficult. Do you have some tips for people, uh, on that one?

Eliot: So, um,  

as, as most of your listeners will know,  learning grammar takes, uh, a long time.  

David: Mm-hmm.

Eliot: It's not an easy thing. It's a major sort  

of intellectual challenge to learn the grammar of a language that's not your native language. So,  

um, you know, if, if a student, uh, who’s coming to me to take an exam has, you know, six months  

to prepare, I would say, you know, sign up for a class. Get, get with a teacher if you can. At the  

very least, get a really good grammar book and do a lot of self-study. You know, keep trying  

to grow. You'll, as a, as a non-native speaker of another language, it may be that you will  

never fully master the grammar of another, of the language you're trying to learn. The grammars of  

living languages are just so complex. And so, be a student continuously and keep trying to learn,  

keep asking for feedback. Um, but, on a more practical level, um, you know, so, the example  

I gave earlier of, of students who, uh, make a lot of, um, verb tense mistakes, let's say, well,  

many of a, many of my students that I've had, uh, actually know verb tenses extremely well, right?  

If they, if I sat down and gave them a half-  hour to finish a verb tense test, they would,  

most of them would at, let's say, an intermediate level, would get a perfect score, okay?

It's the difference, though, between  knowing and as we talked about earlier,  

and being able to do it, right? Can you,  in the, in the course of fluent speech,  

use, uh, verb tenses accurately? And  that's something that you can practice  

again through speaking over and over.  Um, the, the best thing to do, though,  

is to record yourself. Get a recording of each time that you're giving a sample answer for  

something like the IELTS or whatever it is you're trying to improve your speaking for. And then,  

analyze it. You may notice that you're making verb tense mistakes or other types of mistakes  

that you understand are mistakes in theory. You just weren't able to overcome them when you were  

trying to speak fluently. That's such a common thing. So, being able to, to analyze yourself,  

either get feedback from a native speaker or to record yourself and to listen to the things that  

you're doing when you're speaking can be a really good way to, to improve your grammar skills.

David: Yeah, and that's something that, as I, as I've  

been learning about Rachel's English Academy and  the work that her students are doing in there, um,  

there are these sound boards where people  can, you know, listen to over and over  

again the sound of their voice hitting their  own ear and hearing how it sounds. But then,  

can take it a step further in Rachel's English Academy and actually post to the Facebook group,  

you know, with video and actually get, you know, feedback from other students about how that sounds  

to the other students, and Rachel’s in there as well. So, it's just, it's sort of this amazing,  

um, application of, of video and audio  together that people can use to, you know,  

they have to sort of put themselves out there, but it's just incredible to, to think about the  

power of our own ears and the ears of other people and correcting the way things sound.  

Eliot: Absolutely, yeah. And getting—

Rachel: And—

Eliot: Yeah, go ahead, Rachel.

Rachel: Right. Well,  

I was going to say, I like how you're talking  about, you know, we have this knowledge,  

which is like our theory. And then, we have, like, the ability to do it on the fly as we're speaking,  

the practice. And I like the idea of recording yourself in practice, because when you go back  

and watch that, your knowledge, your theory mind will be able to correct your practice mind.

Eliot: Yeah.

Rachel: And, like, in a situation like,  

the, my Facebook group, if maybe your knowledge isn't quite there, but if you post it and then  

someone else’s knowledge can, can come in and say, you know, this is one thing that you should tweak,  

then—but, but even if you decide not to  do that and it's just yourself that you  

can correct yourself, and this is one thing  that I really try to train my students to do,  

is to correct themselves. They do not have to have a teacher always telling them what to fix.  

They can do an incredible amount of training on their own when they know how to do it.

Eliot: Absolutely,  

yeah. And getting that, getting the feedback from recordings and having that. Not just letting,  

you know, speech is different from writing,  because once it's out of our mouths,  

it's sort of gone forever, right?  It's, it, it's out there, and, and,  

and it's sort of lost unless we record it and we go back and we analyze it a little bit. And how,  

you know, I'll speak for myself. Again, when I speak another language, I, I, it's probably  

almost every second or third sentence, I make a mistake. I catch it, but it's too late. The  

thing is already out of my mouth, right? And I've made the mistake and I thought about it,  

but then I'm trying to hold a conversation. So, I let it go and I don’t think about it anymore.  

When you practice speaking and you record yourself, you get to listen to it again, it's,  

it's not fun. I, I'll, you know, I don’t love  to listen to my own voice recorded on something.

Rachel: Right, and your own mistakes. 

Eliot: Yeah, and you, you're listening for mistakes. But there it is, and what you're, what I,  

I think what you're doing is, as you say, you're pulling the theory and the practice together every  

time you attend to it and you focus on it. It gets that much closer, uh, to being something that you  

can do in full, in fluent speech when you're  trying to do it in, in a real situation. So,  

I, I, that, I really think it's a great thing  to have these videos and opportunities to get  

feedback and analyze yourself, but also get feedback from anyone else who can provide it.

Rachel: And one of  

the things that I always tell people is, if,  like, you're saying, you record yourself in a  

conversation. You go back, listen to it later  and you notice a sentence where you made a  

mistake. You know how to fix it. Then, you have the opportunity to practice that sentence, like,  

10, 20, 30 times, making that connection  in the brain stronger. And, you know,  

you don’t, don’t just practice it once. I  always tell people, once you get it right,  

like, that's the time to really go to town  with it, doing it over and over and over.

Eliot: Yeah.

Rachel: In order to sort of,  

you know, be stronger than  the habit that's in place.

Eliot: And, and actually, I think that's a nice,  

a really good segue to the last category that the IELTS used to, to, uh, judge your speaking skill,  

because the last one is pronunciation. And, so,  they, they are looking for your pronunciation on  

the IELTS exam. Um, but, they're, they're not looking for, uh, they're not looking for the  

absence of an accent of any kind, right? So, they expect that anyone, anyone who learns a language  

later than, uh, later than, you know, basically nine, 10 years old, uh, maybe even earlier,  

is going to have some kind of accent when they learn a second language. And, so, they know that.  

They're not going to grade you down for it. What they're looking for are things in your speech that  

get in the way of understanding you, right? So, are there patterns in your speaking that a native  

speaker just would have trouble, uh, decoding, making sense of as you're speaking, okay?

That can be individual sounds that students have  problems with, uh, and that can be, that can be,  

you know, sentence patterns like intonation or the rhythm of your sentence, right? So,  

if you're saying things, really,  on a sentence level where you're  

putting the stress on the wrong word in the sentence or the wrong part of a longer word,  

it can really affect, uh, a listener’s ability  to understand you. And that's the kind of thing  

that they're looking for in the pronunciation. So, that connects to what, what you were just  

saying a minute ago, uh, in the sense that one of the best ways, I think, that students can  

prepare for this kind of exam, like the IELTS exam, uh, in, to, to work on these sort of, uh,  

sounds that may get in the way of meaning is to, to listen to themselves, to record themselves,  

to hear their own voice. Yes, that's part of it, but then also, to do really intensive  

practice, really deeply listening to  native speakers in how they speak.

And not just individual words, but, but snips, you know, clips of language. You know, part of a Ted  

talk or some other kind of longer speech that they might be able to hear. Not just listening to it,  

but, but using it kind of like, again, to use this sort of framework that we've talked out throughout  

the interview here, um, the sort of exercise or music training sort of perspective on it. So,  

stopping and starting the recording, playing it for a few seconds, listening to it deeply, and  

then trying your best to mimic exactly what you hear. And what, what I get from my students is, I  

tell them to try this, and they, they'll, they'll  listen to a clip of, let's say, one sentence at a  

time, and they'll try to mimic it and try to make the sounds. But it, it never ends up being perfect  

until, uh, until they sort of allow themselves to feel silly and to allow themselves to sort of, uh,  

go to someplace where they can make these sounds that are just completely unnatural to them. They,  

you get practice hearing them, but actually  producing them is a different thing.

And your willingness to be able to actually  use your mouth and use your voice to make  

these sounds that are completely foreign  is something you can train with, kind of  

like an athlete or kind of like a musician would train. Uh, and then, there's the psychological  

component of just getting over the idea that these sounds are just completely foreign and  

kind of uncomfortable to make as you're making them. And so, using these recordings and using,  

you know, native, you know, examples of  native speakers speaking and really trying to,  

to speak exactly as they do, copy every feature of what they're trying to say, I think, is a really  

valuable sort of practice for an exam like this, but also just generally to improve your skills.

Rachel: That's so exciting to hear you say,  

because it, like, totally mirrors my own opinion on it in a couple of ways. First, I love what  

you're saying about, there has to be a willingness to do something that might feel very uncomfortable  

or very different or very silly, very lazy. Whatever adjective you want to use there. Just  

do it. You know, I feel like I'm drunk. Okay, try that, you know, because the language you're coming  

from might have such a different style that it, it does feel drunk to you to connect everything  

and sort of be smooth with your English. Um, and, you know, I think a lot of students put  

in a lot of time without having yet made that commitment to, to be uncomfortable and to,  

you know, push themselves, push their boundaries of what they think they should sound like. And if  

you're putting a lot of time into practice before you make that commitment, I don’t think that  

practice is going to be as fruitful. And another thing that I love what I'm hearing you say is,  

you know, this, I, I use Ted talks as  well for students and in my online school,  

where we'll take it, we'll analyze it,  you know, a little piece you can analyze.

It can take me a half-hour to analyze one  paragraph of speech. And then, I'll break it  

up into little, you know, one-second, two-second sentence fragments that they can then just play  

and say over and over. And Eliot, one thing that I discovered that was really exciting was, when they  

take a, a very short clip, you know, it might not even be a whole sentence, and they play it and  

they say it, and they play it again and they  say it again, and they don’t stop and correct.  

They just play it and say it and keep going  forward, that they make all of these amazing,  

subtle changes, and I was talking with someone on this podcast who’s a stroke survivor, an American,  

who said this is actually a method they use in, um, speech pathology as well in training stroke  

victims as well is, you don’t stop and correct. You just rely on the ear and you keep reinforcing  

what you're hearing and you say it. Play it, say it. Play it, say it. It is awesome how people can  

change without getting any feedback from a native speaker when they do that. It's unbelievable.

Eliot: Yeah. And it's the, it's just that repetition.  

And, and it involves your muscles. It involves connections in your brain. It involves things that  

you're not necessarily in control of with your conscious brain, right? It, it's this practice  

that you go through and, and, the repetition that creates something eventually that is, is, is,  

it's basically what you're, what you're striving for, this kind of fluency or this, this ability  

to create the sounds that you are really trying so hard to create. There's no shortcut around it. It,  

it, it's this dedication to not only trying to  feel silly and make those sounds in the first  

place, but then also, the willingness to put in the, the consistent effort to do it. Absolutely.

Rachel: Now, one problem I run into is,  

I can create materials until the cows come  home. I can create hours and hours of materials,  

but I cannot do the work for anybody. You  know, how do you motivate your students?  

Because they have to do the work, because it's their own body. How do you motivate  

students to put in the time consistently  in order to make that change happen?

Eliot: Yeah. It's,  

and, so, you know, what I've, what I've  found from students—now, okay, there's,  

there's a piece of this question where, where unfortunately—you know, just like, uh, you know,  

my sister could, could learn the piano, and she's a wonderful piano player, and I sat in front of it  

and struggled for years and years. Even though I practiced really hard, I, I never quite as good,  

right? Some people have this native ability  to, to get somewhere faster, right? And so,  

we see that person in your English class who seems to be speaking extremely fluently, and we wonder,  

okay, how did they get there? Well, there may  be, there may be sort of that component of,  

of somebody’s capacity to do this thing.  But then, the second part of it that  

relates to your question and this motivation piece—you know, I work with adults mostly,  

or at least young adults up to—I've worked with people who are in the their 70s and 80s as well.

And, um, the people who tend to be the most successful, not only at speaking fluently and  

accurately and clearly, but also in other areas of their English language, are the ones who have  

found some way that they need to use their English in their daily life that sort of puts the pressure  

on them to continue learning and developing over time. So, that person who has a job, let's say,  

where English is used on a daily basis—okay, not, not all of your students are going to go out and  

get a job where English is the language that they use during, uh, during the day. But, that,  

I can say very clearly that the students I've  had who've had to, had the pressure of using  

English in work circumstances, uh, I think that is something that has had a profound impact on many  

of my students. And I, and there's research to back that kind of thing up. So, the, the thing is,  

you know, okay, not everybody’s going to get that job where they use English on a daily basis.

They may not want to. Or there may not be, they may not want to necessarily go to school in an  

English language setting, where the pressure would be similarly high. But can you place  

yourself in situations on a daily basis or at  least a regular basis where you will have to  

communicate in English at a high level? That kind of thing will do much more than what I  

can do as a teacher to motivate you. It, it  is something you can arrange as part of your  

life to make a consistent English practice  really pay off in a concrete way for you,  

because you need to use your English on a daily basis. Can you join a club? Maybe a book club  

of some kind. Something where you're going to have to be talking about something on an  

abstract level or a complex level on a regular basis with people who are also speaking in  

English. That kind of pressure is the kind that motivates people on an ongoing way, and tends  

to propel students to levels higher than what they would just maybe accomplish on their own,  

without a similar kind of, uh, motivational piece that they've added to their lives in some way.

Rachel: Awesome. That's great advice. So,  

if, if your life isn't structured where you're  going to have a job, or you're applying to school,  

then pick something to add the pressure  of needing to learn English well.

Eliot: You have to push yourself into  

different areas, areas where you're uncomfortable. You know, not only to produce sounds of English,  

right, but also, to talk about things that  maybe you're not, you're not really, uh,  

you haven’t really spoken about much before in English. Uh, you have to find those areas and,  

and force yourself to, to put  yourself out there and try them,  

because that's the way your, your English  skills grow broadly over time, as well.

Rachel: Oh, my gosh.  

Such amazing advice. Eliot, you  are a wealth of information.

Eliot: Thank you.

Rachel: I cannot thank you enough for coming  

on the podcast. Now, I'm sure people out there, anyone who is planning on taking this exam, is  

going to want to know how to learn about you and what you're doing. Where—so, tell them, please.

Eliot: Yeah. Well, we have a, we have an IELTS blog. So,  

it's, it's about the IELTS exam. Also, Magoosh has other, you know, other exams, if students are  

interested in the TOEFL or the GRE. Um, but one that I produce is, is the IELTS blog,  

and I'll, uh, I'd love to share a link of  that, of, for, with you guys. And also,  

about the speaking topics we covered here, there's a specific blog post about, uh, you know,  

it's a complete guide to the IELTS speaking  exam. Uh, so, if students are interested in that,  

they should go check that out. It gives a lot  of, uh, advice about how it's scored and how  

they can practice for it to increase their score. I think there's a lot of other general information  

there that they'll find useful. And I would just encourage students to poke around on our blog and  

on our website. We, we really, uh, you know, the main thing we, we do as a company is to offer a  

training program, uh, to help students, uh, to do really well on these exams. It's really, we  

believe really high-quality content that, that's, um, affordable for students. We try to, try to  

make what we create as affordable as we can. Uh, so, it's a good resource there, and that's, that's  

the primary thing that we do. But we, uh, we have a YouTube channel. We have, uh, blogs for all of  

our exams with a lot of free stuff. And students should just feel free to go there and find  

whatever is useful for, for what they're working on. Poke around and see what's there, because  

there's a lot of free stuff that we also have for students. So, um, yeah. We'll, I, yeah, I've got  

some links that I can provide you and, and your students can go poke around if they’d like to.

Rachel: Sure. I will put  

all of those links in the show notes. Um, and I think that's it until we have you on again,  

because I have a feeling that, that we are going to get feedback that says, bring Eliot on and ask  

him this. So, this may be, this may be the first in a series. Eliot, thanks again for your time.

Eliot: Anytime.

David: Yeah. That  

was absolutely perfect. Thanks so much, Eliot.

Eliot: Yeah. Thank you.

Rachel: Thanks again  

to Eliot. So much great information there for not only people who want to improve their test score,  

but for anyone who wants to speak better  English. You have to train for it like a  

musician or athlete, and there are tools  you can use to train, like the materials  

in Rachel’s English Academy or the test prep tools that Eliot is developing over at Magoosh.

Don’t forget, if you want a transcript for this episode, it’s absolutely free to download. Visit  

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