Letting Go of Inhibitions┃Learn American English Pronunciation On the Go

Rachel: Welcome to the Rachel's English podcast.

In today’s episode, I'm sitting down with my husband, David, and we're discussing  

a conversation we had when we were in Italy. Now, when we went to Italy, we didn't study much  

Italian, and so, communication was a challenge, but we were able to pick up some phrases,  

and we do it, did do a little bit of studying.  And in this conversation, we're talking about  

how much more there is to do when learning a language than just learning from a book. We're  

talking a lot about how you can personally engage with the language and the culture and the people  

and the personalities around you. And these kinds of things, I think, are really underrated when  

someone is learning a new language. People tend to focus so much on book knowledge,  

and that's really just part of the story. If you need help understanding what's being said here,  

you can always get a free copy of the transcript for any of the podcasts. Please  

go to rachelsenglish.com/podcast, and search for this episode. Okay, let's dive right in. Thanks,  

David, for being here and sharing  your thoughts about this experience.

David: Yeah. I'm really looking forward to it.

Rachel: What an awesome trip it was.

David: It was incredible.

Rachel: David and  

I were just saying this morning how it's been, a, a week ago today we were flying home. What,  

what does that, does it seem like a week  ago? Or does it seem further away to you?

David: I would say it seems a little bit further.  

It's been such an awful week, really,  

of transitioning back and everybody’s sleep schedule. I mean, it hasn’t been a fun week.

Rachel: Yeah, no. It's been,  

it has been tough getting Stoney back on a  normal sleep schedule, but I think today,  

tonight, last night, he finally did it.  He slept 12 hours without waking up.

David: Yeah. Fingers crossed.

Rachel: That was amazing. Okay,  

so, about speaking another  language. Actually, one night,  

you and I and Audrey and Leon—well, first,  I should say, David’s sister, Audrey and  

her husband Leon came to stay with us in Italy for about nine days that we traveled together.

David: Mm-hmm.

Rachel: And one night, we were sitting around talking  

about what it was like for us, like, on that trip in that moment, to be non-native speakers. And,  

in some cases, to, like, I'm not sure if, I  guess everybody knew at least a few phrases,  

but I mean, we, we're not just non-native  speakers, like, we speak almost no Italian.

David: Right.

Rachel: So, one night, we were sitting around  

talking about this, and I pulled out my phone and started recording it as a voice memo, because  

I thought it was so interesting what was being said. So, let's listen to a little bit of that.  

David: Okay.

Rachel: So,  

at the beginning of this clip, I'm talking  about students who I'm trying to get to  

embody the whole language, and be more of a pure imitator, rather than being themselves  

trying to figure out how to sound. Do you  understand the difference, there, David?

David: Yeah. I mean, I,  

it came out in that conversation. I hadn’t  thought about it before that. But yeah,  

this idea that, if you, in a sense can  leave your whole self behind and just  

imitate another person. I feel like that's what we talked about that night for a little bit.

Rachel: Yeah. Okay, let's hear what we were  

saying. And so, when it's, I think in a way, when they're no longer feeling so much that's them,  

and they're like taking a parallel step that's a straight switch to another idea of someone else,  

then some of those inhibitions go away, and, and the imitation becomes more accurate,  

because for a lot of people, imitating a  native speaker feels very exaggerated. I mean,  

Italian can feel very, um, like, there, there's  no way that I would, that I would do it like that.

Leon: To be that dramatic.

Rachel: Yes.

Leon: And that exaggerated.

Rachel: Right.

Audrey: It's also more playful.

Rachel: So, here we're talking  

about how exaggerated it can feel to do anything that's sort of outside of your normal language  

feeling and normal language sounds. And for us, Italian felt especially that way, because Italian  

is such an expressive language, and I think that the, culturally, the people are so expressive.  

Would you say that that is a generally true  statement, compared to, like, the broader world?

David: Oh. I don't know  

if I would say broader world. I would say  as compared to American English, for sure.

Rachel: Mm-hmm.  

David: I think that  

there are lots of other languages that are like that, too, but that in particular, when you set  

that beside American English, American English looks reserved and stiff compared to Italian.

Rachel: And yet,  

for someone who’s coming from a different language, probably even Italian, to, to English,  

any time you're dealing with sounds and  characteristics that are not your own,  

it feels awkward to the point where it,  it feels exaggerated, and maybe even  

sometimes clownish, like, to go all the way there. But it's so important that students try to let  

themselves go all the way there, and that was one thing we were kind of feeling when we there.

David: And this idea that,  

maybe it's easier to let yourself go there, if you sort of abandon yourself and kind of completely  

take on the persona, the character, of, of someone that you're observing that's a native speaker.

Rachel: Yeah. Letting  

go of yourself, and, and we, we talk  about that more. Let's keep listening.

Rachel: Yeah.

Audrey: And more fun.

Rachel: Play is so important.

Audrey: Right. If you're,  

if you're more playful and you just  kind of enter it more playfully,  

you don’t take yourself so seriously, and  so, maybe that's easier, then, in a way.

Rachel: Yeah. So,  

David, I'm so glad to hear you've been  experimenting with that on this trip.

David: Yeah. And, and I  

remember that from living in Dominican Republic. You know, you do the first six weeks in the city,  

and then six weeks on service. And so, on service, it was this sort of country accent, but it was  

when I was actually good enough at Spanish to, you know, even have a foundation to take on.

Rachel: So, David,  

here, you're talking about  when you were living abroad,  

how you, you started out living in the  capitol of Santo Domingo. Is that right?

David: Right.

Rachel: And then, after six  

weeks of language study, you went out into the country. And you were in a pretty rural area.

David: Yeah, very. Mm-hmm.

Rachel: For the next  

six weeks. And you had been saying that  the Spanish spoken in these two places,  

or the Spanish that you learned in your formal Spanish class, and then the Spanish that was  

actually being spoken in the rural area, that those two Spanishes, were quite different.

David: Correct. Mm-hmm. Right.

Rachel: Let's keep listening.

David: The character of the language, this thing that we're talking about. And so, I really,  

I think I did that the second six weeks that  I came back to the city. And I had one night,  

then, at the host family in the city, and  I, something happened, and I made a comment,  

I don't know even know what it was now, and, uh, the host mom says, “Ay, que campesino.”

Rachel: Okay. So,  

what happened here? You had  picked up some phrases and a  

way of speaking that was different than  how your host family in the city spoke.

David: Yeah, and I think it was a common sort of curse  

word kind of a thing. Like, it was a, it was maybe a little bit, uh, sort of edgy and, you know...

Rachel: Yeah.

David: A little bit of—

Rachel: A little questionable  

whether or not you should be using it freely?

David: Well, yeah,  

probably. But it was also, I think, my  accent and just the way that I said it  

made her say, oh, my God. This guy  has turned into a country bumpkin.

Rachel: Right, which we talk about later,  

is actually a compliment, because it's like,  wow, you absorbed where you were so well.  

David: Yeah.

Leon: Like, what a farm boy.

David: Country bumpkin,  

because I had, you know, the nuance.  I had taken on the accent and the  

subtlety of the Spanish, of the  books that I had spending 24/7—

Rachel: Which is totally not what  

you'd been studying. You'd been studying textbook  Spanish, perfect Spanish, but then when you're  

there and you're embodying it, you take on the,  the character and the feeling and the vocabulary  

and the lilt. Actually, this is interesting,  because when we talk about the difference  

between textbook Spanish and the Spanish that  you were actually speaking around people,  

that's one thing that a lot of my students come  learning English from textbooks in a classroom,  

from reading, and then they get so messed up  with pronunciation and fluency because of,  

we don’t have the correlation between letters and  sounds. English is not a phonetic language. So,  

they're coming and they're having a hard time with  pronunciation, and then they're fully pronouncing  

each word, because they think, you know, this is  how I can be clear in the language. And then, they  

come to understand that Americans don’t do that  at all. We do tons of reductions where we change  

the sounds in a less important word, so that we  can make it said really quickly. And so, there's  

a huge difference for students between often what  they've learned about English and how English is  

actually pronounced, and that's why they have such  a hard time with listening comprehension. And so,  

when they come to Rachel's English, they start  seeing what we're doing, then they start to get,  

oh, my gosh. This is actually how I can understand  people. This is actually how I will sound native.

David: Mm-hmm. Right. And I was also just thinking about  

that time when I was living in the countryside. I  had no Spanish classes during those six weeks. So,  

what I was doing a lot of is what you encourage  people to do, which is to listen to yourself and  

then try it again. You know, I was listening to  other people and also listening to how I sounded  

constantly all day, and trying to, you know, with  my own ear, correct how my mouth and vocal cords  

were forming the words. It's just interesting that  I learned a lot about how to actually sound like a  

native speaker, and I had literally zero minutes  of class time during that whole six- week period.

Rachel: Right. You were just  

around native speakers. What a novel idea.

David: Yeah. And,  

well, right. Mm-hmm. And listening and  repeating and listening and repeating.

Rachel: And the thing that I loved  

about when I was in a similar experience is,  David, is, when you're not looking at a book  

and reading what people say and trying to do  translations and trying to learn vocabulary words,  

when you're not doing that and you're just  hanging out with native speakers listening,  

then you pick up on phrases they use that  might be slang or might be casual, might be,  

you know, not something you would see in  a textbook. And, and then you start to  

put together, oh, this is what they use when they want to say this. And I always found that  

learning a phrase in an actual, real context of  how a native speaker is using it always made it so  

much easier for me to learn and remember, because  it's like, the whole foundation is there. You're  

not just, it's not separate. It's like part of  the real thing, part of the real conversation.

David: I remember actually  

learning a phrase. I forget what it was. I  think it was something along the lines of,  

hey, come over here, and I learned how to  use it very accurately and say it exactly  

right. And I thought that I was just learning  a reduction or, um, slang, but then I actually,  

when I got back and talked to people, or somebody  maybe heard me use it and I thought I was using  

slang and it was actually the, like, command  tense of the word that I didn't even know I  

was learning. In other words, I actually  learned some formal and correct Spanish.

Rachel: And you didn't know it.

David: By just repeating and—

Rachel: Because you hadn’t heard  

it or learned it in a formal setting.

David: Hadn’t learned it on—right, but I learned it.

Rachel: Right.

David: Contextually.

Rachel: Yeah. How amazing is that? Like, you, you heard  

the sounds. You knew what they meant. You saw the  nuance from repeated context. You did it yourself,  

and here you were learning, like, some conjugation  that you had not even studied in school.

David: Right. Yeah.

Rachel: That's cool. Okay,  

let's keep listening. Of everyone around you.

Leon: Did that bother you at that point?

David: 

Oh, no. If anything, it was  compliment at that point.  

Leon: Like, okay, I got it.

David: Yeah.

Rachel: Like, my  

Spanish is so good that someone is accusing  me of sounding like a country bumpkin. David,  

should we define country bumpkin  quickly? It comes up a few times  

there. Country bumpkin is a derogatory  term. I mean, it's not like super harsh.

David: No, but it's definitely derogatory.

Rachel: And it's somebody,  

a, calling somebody a country  bumpkin means, you know, they,  

they live in a rural area. They're sort  of isolated. Um, it's maybe saying that  

they have not traveled, have not seen the  big city, have not gotten around, are not—

David: Well, they're plain.

Rachel: Too educated.

David: And unsophisticated.

Rachel: Yeah. A little uneducated, even, wouldn't you  

say that would be part of it? Yeah. So, when, when  David used this one phrase, his, his host mom in  

the city thought, oh, that sounds, made him sound  a little uneducated, a little unsophisticated.

David: Right.

Rachel: Yeah. Okay.

David: Oh,  

man. That was devastating, to go  home at that point, after being—like,  

literally the last week, feeling close to  fluent, and having spent 12 weeks in hell.

Audrey: Wow.

David: You know? Of not—  

Audrey: You were almost there.

David: Of, of feeling not fluent  

and then just at the end, feeling like—

Leon: Yanked out from under you.

David: Man, this is coming.  

I got it. I understand most of what's being said.

Rachel: I never  

got there. I never was like, I'm almost fluent.

David: Well, I definitely, well, you know—

Rachel: Capable.  

I would say I still felt barely  conversational at the end of 13 weeks.

Leon: I knew what they were talking about, mostly.

Rachel: But when you were in the country, you were  

much more isolated. My second six weeks, there was  a lot of English going on. And that probably is—

Leon: That makes a difference.

Rachel: What made the difference.

David: That's a big difference.

Audrey: I know Becca, like,  

with Chinese, she was more out in the, a village,  and I think that was very good for her. Um, yeah.

David: I think it's  

a huge difference, and it speaks to  the power of that full immersion.

Audrey: But I think it's also, like,  

you can be in immersion, but without some of that,  um, lightheartedness or letting go of some of your  

inhibitions, it’d still be enough. I mean, I think  there is something about that that is so crucial.

Rachel: I do think  

some personalities just do a lot better.

Audrey: Like Christina in China. I know, she was like  

out there and learning a song on the riverboat,  on the Yangtze River, because she wanted to learn  

that. You know, she wanted to learn Chinese. I'm  much more reserved and much more shy. And so,  

that's more challenging for me, but I can do a  lot of listening and kind of come home and then  

do my persona, or do my, with people I know, do  my, do my talking, and maybe gain some strength  

in my language skills that way. So, I think it's  okay to be different types of people, too. And  

maybe that's part of what you're talking about in  terms of persona. Like, taking a certain persona  

is that however you like to do that is okay.  There's not one right way that is the good way.

Rachel: Right.

Audrey: There's just different ways.

Rachel: Right, and I do  

think that my students who are just unwilling to  let themselves go there, those are the ones that  

really suffer with their language learning. But  people who can do it in one way or another, I,  

I think are the ones that I listen to them  and I think, okay, yeah, they're going to,  

they're going to go somewhere. But for a lot of  people, not a lot, for some people, it's just,  

it just never feels okay to do something  that sounds foreign or feels foreign.

Audrey: But it's a loss of control.

Rachel: Yes. Okay,  

so, here, a couple of things I want to say. First  of all, at the table, it was, as I said earlier,  

my sister, sister-in-law and brother-in-law,  and then David and I. And we're talking about  

our other family members, and all four of us at  this table have had this same experience. We all  

went to the same college that has a strong  emphasis on an international experience. So,  

80% of the people that go to the college that we  went to do a semester abroad. That's very high for  

the U.S., and I have gone to the Dominican  Republic for my semester abroad. David,  

also the Dominican Republic.  My sister-in-law Audrey went  

to Haiti. Do you remember where Leon  went? I know it was Spanish speaking.

David: I'm not sure. It might have been Costa Rica.

Rachel: I don’t think it was Costa Rica.  

David: I don’t either, actually.

Rachel: I can't remember. Was it El Salvador? No, I don’t  

think so. Okay, we can't remember the country that  he went to. But then, we're also talking about,  

um, my other sister-in-law, Christina, who  went to China, and my niece, Becca, who also  

went to China. So, a lot of members of our family  have gone to this same college and have all had  

this experience of going somewhere for a semester  where you do not speak the language, and you know,  

in some cases, being plopped out in a very rural  area where there is no English being spoken. Now,  

for me, as I said in that clip, my second half  of my semester was not in a rural area. It was in  

another town, and in that town, I was around a lot  of people speaking English. There was actually,  

there were actually two other Americans living in  my house with that Spanish speaking family. Uh,  

and the son was fluent in English, pretty much,  and loved the opportunity to practice it. So,  

that was really, you know, I said I felt barely  conversational when I left that semester,  

and that's partly because I was never really  immersed. I was around Americans or English  

speakers too much of the time. And I, I wonder  what would have happened if I'd been placed  

somewhere where there was no English, or English  wasn't an option. That, the idea of doing that  

for 13 weeks is really exciting to me. I wish  that that had been my experience, sort of.

David: Yeah. It's certainly different,  

and I also think in that clip that we just  listened to, I do think it's really fascinating  

what Audrey said about, you can be somewhere where  you are immersed in the language. In other words,  

where there's no other speaker of your language  that's around. And so, you're, you're the whole  

way surrounded by the language, but you can  choose still to not immerse yourself. I mean,  

there is this choice about being playful,  being willing to, oh, what's the word?

Rachel: Engage?

David: Engage.

Rachel: And it has so much  

to do with your comfort. I mean, I think anyone  in that situation would be uncomfortable, but how  

comfortable are you with discomfort? You know,  will you lean into that? Or will you withdraw?

David: That gets right  

at it. I agree. The discomfort is guaranteed  to be there, and it's what you do with it,  

how you're going to relate to it. I agree.  You can lean in. You can embrace it. You can  

say to yourself, you know what? I'm going to  have a day that's completely discomfortable,  

uncomfortable, but that's okay,  and I'm going to be okay with that.

Rachel: Right. For the record,  

discomfortable is not a word we actually use,  just in case anybody is thinking about picking  

it up from David. But we do use discomfort, and we  do use uncomfortable, and yes, I said in that clip  

the idea of when I see a student who is, like,  experimenting with English sounds and I can sense,  

I can sense the discomfort that people have with  this. The ones who kind of smile and are willing  

to like, you know, kind of put their chin out and  do something different are the ones who I think,  

okay, they're going, they're going to be fine.  They're going, they're going to get there. And  

then one who are like kind of withdrawn back  and their chin is like sort of drawn back  

into themselves and, and they're just not able to  cross that line, those are the ones that I think,  

this is too bad. It's their personality that  is sort of interfering with them being able  

to pick up this language, because it's not  all book learning. It is embodying with your  

whole self the persona and the feeling of the  language, and, and that can be pretty strange.

David: You talk  

about this with your Rachel's English Academy.  Students, there's a mindset piece, and you know,  

to be a traveler is a different mindset than  someone who never leaves their culture of origin.  

And you know, there are so, so many aspects of  this that are culturally lodged. I mean, again,  

back to our time in Italy, I think Italians  culturally encourage playfulness and joking  

and lightheartedness. And they deal with the,  you know, the realities of being human by being  

playful, light, and joking their way through it.  But a lot of that is culturally lodged. You know,  

I think in a lot of other cultures, people are,  there's not a freedom within the culture to—

Rachel: Yeah. People are more reserved.

David: Be light. Right. And that that's,  

that's normed culturally for a lot of reasons,  and it makes the culture work well. And, you know,  

but if you're going to, if you're going to  travel, and I'm using travel in the widest  

sense of the word, if you're going to engage  other cultures, you know, there is this, um,  

different mindset that you have to be in,  which is to say, mistakes are where learning  

happens. Playfulness is a great way to  connect with other people. Of course,  

there are times for serious conversation and  there are lots of ways to connect, but you know,  

it's a lot easier when you're connecting with body  language and, and non-verbals. You know, a smile  

goes a long way. A shared laugh about something  that crosses all cultures is a great way—

Rachel: Yeah. A friendly expression.

David: Yeah.

Rachel: And I,  

I just want to say, you know, you're talking  about this idea of like the traveler mentality,  

and you don’t ever have to leave your own  country to have that, and to have that  

approach to the language that you're learning.  So many of my students are not in the U.S.,  

but they're engaged with this language learning  process, and they, they can have that mentality of  

picking up the culture via the language,  how we use language, and that kind of thing.

David: Absolutely. Again,  

travel in the widest sense,  that it's a mindset. Mm-hmm.

Rachel: Yeah. Let's  

start listening again to the conversation, and  keep in mind here that we're, we're discussing  

the discomfort and the loss of control that can  have with, that can come with starting something  

new or learning something new. [crosstalk 00:22:50] Audrey: 

It's very scary. So, I'm not critical  of people who can't do that, because—

Rachel: Right. No, I do understand.

Audrey: It's actually, very, very scary.  

It's a loss of control, and you don’t, you know,  you don’t have that. And so, it's frightening.

Rachel: I agree. I get very much so,  

because I think I, I am definitely reserved. And  I, I think, people who know me wouldn't say that,  

but people who don’t yet know me  and then know me later will say,  

I thought you were really cold when I first  met you. I've had several people say that.  

I didn't get you. And I am more reserved  than—once I know somebody, I'm so different,  

but I definitely get the, I'm not stepping out  of my comfort zone for this kind of orientation.

Leon: The American me will probably always be reserved.

Rachel: Mm-hmm. Oh, but the Italian you—

Leon: That sense of— 

[crosstalk 00:23:43] Leon: Person that is different than that.

Rachel: Yes.

Leon: And just step into that person,  

and I don’t have to give up the American  me, but I didn't have only the Italian me.

Rachel: And you know, that's a good point. Maybe  

that's something I can tell my students is, as  you're developing this persona, develop somebody  

who’s not afraid of mistakes, even if you are. Leon: 

Right, and you could still be that, have  that other identity as your nationality.

Rachel: Yeah.

Leon: But this is your persona now, and—

Audrey: So, I'm going to be  

a shy American, but I'm also going  to be a very outgoing Chinese.

Rachel: Yeah, exactly.

Audrey: That's interesting.

Rachel: This is where I  

think some people get into, but I shouldn't have  to leave myself behind to fit in, in America,  

and I get that. And that's where it gets  tricky with advising people to develop a  

different persona is, I don’t want anyone  thinking that I'm feeling like they need to  

give themselves up. And I think a lot of people  would say, no. I'm not going to give myself up.

Audrey: But maybe  

it's more about, you know, we all have  different parts of ourselves. Like,  

I have a very shy and reserved part, then I  do have sort of one part of me that's more  

adventurous. So, maybe nurturing that part of  me, like, it's not totally not being myself.

Rachel: Right. We  

all act differently in different situations.

Audrey: But it's also, language is sort of,  

you do have to take another script. You  do have to take another, another way,  

because it's, it is a different way  of being. It's not only words. It is—

Rachel: Right.

Audrey: A way of being.

Rachel: And actually,  

speaking of script reminds me sort of what gave  me this idea originally, was the show House,  

MD. Have you guys ever seen that? There's an  actor, Hugh Laurie there. And I totally assumed  

he was American, and then I read an interview  with him and realized that he was British,  

and I was like, whoa. His accent is perfect.  And then, I was like, you know, a lot of actors  

developed perfect accents when they switched  genres, and I've thought, it's because they're  

developing a character as they are developing that voice. And maybe that  

is part of what helps you really  embody the nuance of something.

Leon: Of the model of an actor. It's a good—

Rachel: Full development.

Leon: Understanding of  

how you enter another culture and do that.

Rachel: Right. It's full development, and it's not just,  

how do I work on this accent? But it's, who, who,  who is this person? Who am I? And how do I talk  

as a part of that? So, yeah, David, it's just,  it's, that really, that last chunk really sort of  

gets down to what we're talking about and what we  were feeling when we were there was, it's not just  

sounds. It's not just language. It's, it's  a full-body, full-person, full-personality,  

throwing yourself in, identifying with  Italians. Trying to emulate Italians.

David: Mm-hmm.

Rachel: In order to learn Italian.

David: Yeah. To the point of, I love how Leon says his  

American self can always be shy or reserved, but  his, he can be a bold Italian. That's just great.

Rachel: Yeah. How fun  

is that? It's an invitation to be  someone you've always wanted to be,  

or to stretch in one way or another  when you're learning a new language.

David: Versus thinking  

of that as scary or intimidating. Of course,  it's always going to be scary and intimidating,  

but it's nice to add that layer  of interpretation, to say, oh,  

yeah. This is an invitation to be bold and  playful and funny and all those other things.

Rachel: Yeah. Just  

great lessons for anyone studying  any language to keep in mind. David,  

thanks so much for being here and discussing  this with me. It was, you know, it was very  

enlightening. I'm glad I pulled out my phone  to capture that, because that was what we  

were feeling in that moment, that conversation  spun out of the experience we'd had that day.

David: Oh, it was really fun at the time. At one point,  

you can hear somebody filling up a wine glass.  We just had, we had a couple glasses of wine,  

and were able to sit around and talk about  our experience. That was such a fun night.  

Rachel: It was a  

fun night. Stoney was asleep. The good thing  about, one of the good things about Stoney is,  

the kid goes to sleep very easily and very early.  And so, we just had so many wonderful evenings,  

just discussing our travels while we were there.  Okay, guys. Well, this is part one in a three-part  

series that we're doing about our trip to Italy.  This was the language part. Look for the next two  

parts coming out over the next two weeks. So,  you might want to head to the iTunes store,  

or to Stitcher to subscribe to this podcast.  I would love it if you did. You know what?  

Let's go one step further. Share this podcast. Share it with your friends and family. Post it  

to Facebook or whatever social media you use and  say, hey, guys. If you're studying English, listen  

to this. It's not just about what you study in  the book. It's about so much more than that. So,  

thanks for listening, thanks for sharing,  and we will see you next time. Bye, guys.

David: Bye, guys.