Teaching ESL Teachers┃Learn American English Pronunciation On the Go

Rachel: On today's podcast we are welcoming a professor  

from Butler University who teaches English teachers. We do get pretty technical here but  

there's also some interesting conversation about what makes a good teacher and I know that a lot of  

people out there listening to Rachel's English are ESL teachers. So there's going to be some  

interesting stuff here. We also discuss strategies for teaching someone how to help new students from  

foreign countries understand American culture. For a free transcript of the episode just visit  

RachelsEnglish.com/podcast and search for this episode. Here we go. We're here with Dr. Brooke  

Kandel-Cisco who is a teacher of ESL teachers. And we've got some questions today to pick her  

brain about the field of teaching English as a Second Language. Brooke, what is your degree in?  

Brooke: My degree is a Doctor of Philosophy in educational  

psychology with an emphasis in bilingual and ESL education.

Rachel: Educational psychology?

Brooke: Yes.

Rachel: What what does that even mean?

Brooke: Educational psychology is really a field  

that studies patterns and human behavior and seeks to better understand human behavior. However,  

the specific program I was in was really very much more focused on language, language development  

and it did take a somewhat behaviorist  approach to language development though.

Rachel: And what is your current job title?

Brooke: I'm an associate professor of English as a Second Language 

at Butler University in Indianapolis Indiana.

Rachel: So what is your job entail at this point?

Brooke: So primarily  

I teach courses to undergraduate students. So, students who are in college who want to  

become teachers. Some of them want to be math teachers or science teachers and others want to  

only focus on English as a second language when they graduate. I also work with graduate students  

who are already classroom teachers and they're pursuing an ESL license. So they are learning  

how to work as specifically as an English  as a second language teacher in the schools.

Rachel: So your undergrad students who are not going to be ESL teachers,   

but who are going to be math teachers or this kind of thing,  

are they taking classes with you as a resume-builder kind of thing to say  

and I have some ESL training, or what would be the incentive for a math teacher to do that?

Brooke: Well, our program actually requires every  

teacher who's going to be a middle school or high  school teacher to take two ESL classes as a part  

of their degree, and that's pretty unique amongst teacher preparation programs. And the idea behind  

that is, if you can successfully teach students who don't speak English, and you know some of the  

techniques and the ways to reach those students, you're very likely to be able to reach some of  

the other students too. So in those two required ESL classes, we don't just talk about specific  

methods, but we also talked about socio-cultural  context, how you connect with people who are  

different from you, how you make sure your school  environment is equitable for all learners. So a  

lot of what we teach for, specifically for ESL  preparation, applies to all students. And we  

want students to graduate and be prepared to  teach every single student in their classroom.

David: And you mentioned  

being licensed as an ESL teacher, can you say  what does the state of Indiana sort of require,  

what does that process look like  for people who are pursuing that?

Brooke: So in Indiana  

in each state is different. In Indiana you  have to have an initial teaching license in a  

content area if you're a middle or secondary  teacher, so biology or chemistry or math or  

English and then only once you have that initial  license can you add an ESL license. So any ESL  

license is considered an add-on license that you  you have to already be licensed to get a second  

license and it includes required coursework  as well as taking an exam connected to the  

TESOL standards for ESL teachers. These are just  standards that the TESOL organization has created,  

that they want all people who are teaching  English as a second language to kindergarten  

through 12th grade students have  these certain standards mastered.

Rachel: What are those standards? What are those things?

David: Because  

we're always talking about how Rachel,  you know part of what's unique is that  

her method has developed without formal  training and so we're always curious to  

hear about in more formal context, what does it  look like? What's being expected of teachers?

Brooke: Typically, when we think about teaching ESL, we  

often just see, think of language that really all  we're doing is teaching students how to understand  

and speak a language. The TESOL standards are much  more comprehensive in terms of addressing all the  

elements that an ESL teacher would deal with in  a classroom situation. So the first domain in  

the TESOL standards is language. So that's  really looking at language as a structure,  

the patterns of language, understanding like how  to break down English words, they do a little  

bit with the international phonetic alphabet,  although they don't have to have that mastered.  

Rachel: Oh, I love IPA.

Brooke: Yes. And so  

oftentimes we get folks like Rachel perhaps who  love language, who are very obsessed with like  

the discrete parts of language and that's one  skill that teachers need to have. And what we  

work on with students is also developing the  other domains. So the instructional domains,  

so understanding how to teach language in a way  that is meaningful for k-12 students and so for  

adults that's different than for students who  are expected to keep up in science and keep up in  

math. And so part of that is teaching teachers  how to teach English through their content  

area. So that you're kind of getting a double  whammy, because students don't have enough time,  

they only have 12 years in the United States  to catch up in terms of learning English and  

then learn the content. We have to do both at  the same time, they have to be learning the  

content and they have to be learning language  at the same time. So that's really one of,  

maybe it's even too late to say it's a trend at  this point, but that's some of the assumptions in  

the field of ESL for k-12 students is that it's  content-based. We're no longer pulling kids out  

to do ESL instruction out of the classroom  or in general we shouldn't be doing that.

Rachel: When did that change, do you think?

Brooke: Within the  

past ten years for sure. Our pullout ESL  method has really fallen out of favor,  

just because kids miss out on the content  then when they're outside of the classroom  

and we end up teaching them language and  a more discrete, kind of isolated way.

Rachel: Not real life.

Brooke: Right. Not real life, not what  

they actually need. So there are certain cases  where it might be appropriate to do that with a  

student. For example, maybe a student who has just  arrived in eighth grade and doesn't speak one word  

of English, just putting them in a content class,  even with an excellent content teacher who knows  

how to teach ESL, is still going to be pretty  difficult for that student. So there are some  

cases where it's appropriate, but in general,  TESOL and, really, ESL professionals advocate  

for the ESL teacher to push into the classroom and  support the ESL students within the content area.

David: That's interesting. Rachel,  

if you think about your approach over these  years, you've done a lot. If your content  

area is real life, you know, you deliver a lot  of technical information and a lot of, you know,  

some of your nuanced, you get into nitty-gritty,  whether it's IPA or other kinds of the  

ways that the native speakers actually sound, but  your content area has so often been real life,  

whether it's how to how to introduce yourself  to someone else, or these other kinds of real  

life videos, it's just interesting that over  the last ten years in academia that's a trend  

and that's sort of, you know, that mirrors your  work over the last ten years, that's interesting.

Rachel: Yeah, yeah. It's cool.

Brooke: Way to go.

Rachel: Thank you.

Brooke: Way to be ahead of the curve.

Rachel: Wow, trend setter.

Brooke: Definitely. So and the other domains within  

the TESOL standards, culture is one and that  is the whole idea that language is not neutral,  

and language is contested and negotiated with an  associate cultural context. So just because we  

can speak perfect English if we don't understand,  I mean you could say some of the pragmatics but  

it goes beyond that, if you don't understand the  context and, and really the power that language  

brings and the way we use language to get what  we want and how power is used, or how language is  

used as a tool for some students to get ahead, and  some students not to, that's really what we talk  

about in this domain, is helping our pre-service  teachers understand that equity issues in schools.

Rachel: What is a pre-service,  

one that has not yet entered the classroom?

Brooke: Yes. Yeah. One who's preparing to be  

a teacher. So we really, in domain two, it's very  easy to teach like what they call “flags, fiestas,  

and foods” as far as culture, but we we really try  to resist that in our programs and encourage our  

teachers to think about how do you dig underneath  the surface of culture, and how do you start  

asking those really difficult questions in schools  that are actually going to have a long-term impact  

on our English language learners, that aren't  just about celebrating the food that they eat  

at lunch or at dinner but it goes beyond that,  and really having deep understanding of culture,  

and what that means. Rachel: 

What are you discovering as far as how to teach,  how to expose on a deep level the culture,  

so that those people have an advantage that  natives have? I mean what have you found there?

Brooke: Well one of the things we do with our  

students in our program is, we teach them using  critical literacy invitations, and those were  

developed by a woman, they've really been promoted  by a faculty member who works out of Chicago.  

Basically, using questions about issues that are  affecting students’ lives, issues that relate to  

race inequity and really push students and we  use those with our undergraduates to show them  

how to use them with their future students. And  so I had one student, he was already a licensed  

teacher but he came back for his ESL license and  he was teaching in a school environment that was  

very quickly gentrifying, and he had eighth  graders, so they were kind of on the tail end  

of the group of students who had lived there their  entire lives and whose grandparents lives there...

Rachel: Can you  

define gentrifying quickly for people  who might not know that vocabulary word?

Brooke: Yes. So gentrifying  

is, well one way of describing it is perhaps  there's been a certain group of people who  

have lived in the neighborhood for a long time  and suddenly that neighborhood is very popular  

with another group of people, typically folks who  have more financial means, and they can afford to  

move into the neighborhood, and they raise the  home prices. And once a few families move there,  

then other families move there and then it  makes it very difficult for the families who,  

perhaps are of lesser financial  means to remain in the neighborhood.

Rachel: So gentrifying is  

often seen as something that pushes out people  that have been there for, maybe, generations.

Brooke: For generations. And  

there's often a race component to it as well,  very often people of color being pushed out  

and white middle-class folks are coming into the  neighborhood, although that's not always the case,  

but it generally is. So this school community was  really struggling with that, and he developed a  

whole bunch of critical literacy invitations,  many focused on gentrification and changes in  

tax code and all sorts of different invitations  for students to explore those issues in their own  

school community, while also hitting the social  study standards, he was a social studies teacher  

and helping them develop their language. So it's  just a very meaningful way for students to use  

language in context to help them understand their  own situation, and then ultimately to help them  

use their voice to advocate for themselves. Rachel: 

That's awesome. I mean, I guess if you're really  trying to get somebody who's new to the United  

States to have a deeper understanding of culture,  you have to do that, and sort of hone in on their  

experience and speak to that specifically in  order to ground them into what's happening.

Brooke: And what we're really trying to  

do is just sensitize teachers to the experiences  of their students, because some ESL programs  

sometimes try to teach students like, "oh well,  your Mexican students will have these traditions,  

your Indian students will have these  traditions," but that's really dangerous  

for obvious reasons. I mean, it typically tends  to over-generalize the experience of students,  

but we can't expect a teacher to go into a school  and understand the culture of every single kid,  

because every kid brings their own, their own  culture, their own identities And so it's more  

sensitizing them to the fact that your view of the  world is not everyone else's, and helping them be  

open and look for their students’ experiences.  And the woman who really helped teachers become  

aware of critical literacy invitations is Katie  Van Sluys and she is a researcher out of Chicago.

Rachel: Cool.

Brooke: The fourth domain in the TESOL standards is  

assessment, and that is really looking at all of  the issues around assessment for English-language  

learners, for students who are learning English  as a Second Language in our schools and some of  

that has to do with assessing their language  level. So when an English as a Second Language  

teacher receives a new student, they always  have to assess their English proficiency level.

Rachel: Is there a standard test that they use for that?

Brooke: It's changing in states,  

it depends on the state really. States  are primarily using WIDA which used to  

be an acronym and now they are just known as  WIDA. And so WIDA standards help content area  

teachers teach English, but then also they have  some language proficiency standards under WIDA  

as well, and so they have a placement test that  teachers use initially to help us understand a  

student's level of English proficiency. But the  assessment standard, probably more importantly,  

we look at issues of bias and assessments and  helping ESL teachers become great advocates for  

their ESL students. So for example, with  high-stakes standardized tests in the US,  

helping teachers understand where the places  that there's some wiggle room for ESL students  

in terms of timing of when they have to take a  high-stakes test, and what that means for them,  

unfortunately at least in Indiana they're not  very generous with giving English language  

learners very much extra time. So the state code  doesn't really work from a place of understanding  

language development and language acquisition and  that it takes minimum of five to seven years.  

Rachel: It sounds like they could use some sensitizing?

Brooke: Yes, I agree. They could be more open  

to the experiences of language learners for sure,  but that's the case with every single student in  

our public schools. The legislature could perhaps  be a little bit more open to understanding student  

experiences. So assessment is really helping  teachers understand, how do we assess in a  

way that gives us meaningful information while  balancing some of the requirements from the state,  

and all the while keeping learners at the center  of what we do. And then the final standard is  

professionalism, and that is really this whole  idea of how do you work collaboratively with  

other teachers in your building. Oftentimes ESL  teachers are somewhat invisible in k-12 schools,  

because of their student population. So ESL  teachers might have 120 English language learners  

on their teaching load, but they don't carry a lot  of power with that, and they don't have a lot of,  

like, social capital in the school necessarily,  and so part of it is helping ESL teachers learn  

how to lift up ESL students amongst the content  area teachers, and remind them you, too, are  

responsible for teaching the student. And that's  one of the great things with the WIDA standards,  

is that the standards are not only for  ESL teachers or for language teachers,  

they're for all teachers and it's really  an explicit statement that all teachers  

are teachers of English language learners, which  is a change from what was happening previously.

Rachel: Yeah. So I actually I would love  

to step back a little bit and hear, before you  were teaching teachers, you were in the classroom  

setting. I'd love to hear a little bit about  your work experience in the classroom and maybe  

even before that, maybe you can talk about how you  got interested in this field in the first place?

Brooke: Sure. Well  

I was a psychology and Spanish major in college,  and once I graduated I wasn't really sure what I  

wanted to do, but I knew that I really wanted to  learn Spanish, that was my number one, kind of,  

goal at that point in my life. And so I moved  to the southern border of Texas and I worked as  

a volunteer something similar to the AmeriCorps  program where volunteers are placed all over the  

US and I worked as an immigrant advocate in  the court system. And primarily what I did,  

is worked with women who were undocumented in  the United States and they were married to men  

who were citizens and who used their  undocumented, the women's undocumented  

status against the women. So they were typically  abusers and they told the women, if you report me,  

or if you report me that I'm abusing you,  you're going to get deported. And so I worked  

there about a year and a half and I only got,  I think, three women approved that entire time.

Rachel: You were  

trying to get them approved  for documented citizenship?  

Brooke: Well residency, at least ...

Rachel: Residency. Okay.

Brooke: …in the United  

States. And I just found that terribly frustrating  and, just, overwhelming, that the system was set  

up in a way that was contrary to my values and  the lives of these women and their children. And  

I often interacted with the children while I was  interviewing the women and working with them, and  

that's really what piqued my interest in English  as a second language and in teaching. So I I went  

back to grad school and for my master's degree,  I got a teaching license in English as a second  

language and bilingual education. And at the time  in Texas, it was the late 90s, they were desperate  

for bilingual teachers and so I got a job right  away at an elementary school that was in Houston,  

Texas, an urban school with about 90% of the  population being English language learners.

Rachel: Wow, that's a lot.

Brooke: Yeah. And so  

I worked as a bilingual ESL teacher. And what  that means in that context, is that we taught  

some of the content in Spanish, which was the  students’ native language, and then we taught  

some of the content in English as a language, in  a way that was very structured and supportive for  

them. So that they could continue to learn the  content while they were learning the language,  

and that was really based on the assumption that  students who are fully literate in their native  

language have a much better chance in the long run  of being fully literate in English. So it was like  

a late-exit bilingual program. So they stayed  in bilingual education till about sixth grade.

Rachel: And is that  

the one job you had before going to get your PhD?

Brooke: Yes. I was  

a teacher in that elementary school  for about six years. Some of the time  

as a classroom teacher and then the last  couple years as the building ESL teacher  

where I just provided extra support to students  who needed it, and that was really kind of what  

propelled me to get my doctorate, is just interest  in the complexities of language learning. And I  

did see a lot of inequities in our school even  with the fact that 90% of the population was  

learning English. It just wasn't right, there were  so many places where, I guess I can give you an  

example. So they were in a bilingual program they  were being taught in Spanish but very often the  

assessments that I had to give them were either  in English or they were very poorly translated  

Spanish. So we were giving them the benefit of  teaching them in their native language, but yet  

they couldn't show it on the standardized test,  because the tests were poorly made, they were  

biased against them linguistically and  culturally, socioeconomically, and so  

that's really what kind of piqued my interest  in digging more deeply into the field of ESL.

David: So I'm  

curious then from your own classroom  experience as well as in the years  

since working with many people who have  been and are going to be in the classroom,  

what do you think are some of the traits  either that you developed, or that your,  

sort of, top students have had that have made them  really stand out as excellent teachers of English?

Brooke: I think primarily the assumption when they,  

when they're able to really live into this idea  that I'm not just a teacher of English or I'm not  

just a teacher of math, I'm a teacher of students,  of learners, of humans, and when they keep that  

at the center of all they do, that looks very  different than someone who really loves math,  

and kids are okay, but I really love math. And you  see a big difference in the way that they interact  

with students when the students are the heart  of what they're doing. I have a very relational  

philosophy of teaching and I think if you don't  have a relationship with a student, it doesn't  

matter how great you are of a mathematician or a  writer, the kids know it and they don't respond  

to you as well. So I think that's the number  one thing, is the relationship with a student  

and having the student at the heart of everything  you do, and from there that really leads to being  

an advocate for students and so you can do a  great job in your classroom, and that is kind  

of the primary space of a classroom teacher, but  if you're not willing to also advocate for those  

same students outside with other teachers, with  the building administrator, with the community  

members, you're really doing a disservice to  your students. So some of the greatest teachers  

are the ones who see themselves as much more  than just a math teacher or a biology teacher.

David: Yeah. And  

it's interesting because I think, I mean, again  Rachel, to your sort of approach over these years,  

you've had this idea that people, whether  it's in a job interview or within a context  

of significant relationships in their life,  you have sort of, I think, that idea that you  

see your work as helping people in these real  situations, you know people who are advanced in  

terms of fluency but you've really put that  idea forward and front and center that you  

want to be able to have them feel confident  and grounded and in both understanding and  

sounding like a native speaker because it  affects so much of their life experience.

Rachel: Yeah, and actually that brings me  

to a question that I wanted to ask you Brooke, is  that, as David has just pointed out, sounding like  

a native speaker as much as the student wants to  has been important to me, and I know that that's  

not a part of the K through 12 curriculum at  all. Do you think at any point it would be fair,  

I mean, if someone comes over at 16 without ever  having had a native teacher and without ever  

having really spoken English, can that person pick  up a native or a close to native accent without  

ever having that being specifically addressed?  I mean, obviously as a young kid, their, their  

brains are such that they don't need to be taught  pronunciation, they just need to hear native  

pronunciation. But the older you get, the harder that is. Do you think that truly nowhere between  

K through age 18 is there a need to  specifically address pronunciation?

Brooke: 

Pronunciation is definitely very controversial  in the field and the primary reason, I think,  

for the lack of focus on pronunciation with K  through 12 students is they just have so many  

other things that they're having to attend  to that it's kind of like the last layer.

Rachel: But wouldn't  

that make their lives easier in some ways?  Wouldn't that help them feel more assimilated  

if they were not able to pick up a native accent  without getting help and specific tips on that?

Brooke: I wouldn't  

say that it wouldn't be helpful, I think that  would be very helpful, and if we had all the  

time in the world and there wasn't a rush to get  them to graduate by a certain date, then yeah,  

I would be all for it. I mean, I think it's  possible, and I know you're doing great work  

in that area. I just think when you're dropped  in a classroom and you don't understand anything  

and someone teach you to read in a language you  don't even know and you can understand. I mean,  

imagine learning to read your first time in  a language you don't understand, I can hardly  

comprehend that in my mind, that, that's just so  far beyond what you're ready to do at that point.  

Now, I do think there are students who move  very quickly, perhaps because they have very  

well developed first language literacy skills, and  they have an understanding of how language works,  

they learn English quickly and I think for  those kiddos for sure, if pronunciation would  

be helpful to them and they're interested in  that, I, I'm not opposed to that whatsoever.  

It's unfortunately, that doesn't happen that  often with students that we get in general.

Rachel: They have  

too many other things that need to be worked on?

Brooke: Yes. So not only language, but content  

and social, like navigating social situations and  oftentimes ESL students are, of course, immigrant  

families and their parents are gone, all the  time working three jobs trying to make ends meet,  

so it's just kind of, if we think of, I guess  it's almost like Maslow's hierarchy of needs,  

you could kind of make it parallel to that, that  it's like the last thing on our to-do list as far  

as teachers developing that, but that's not to say  if a student wants to know “am I pronouncing this  

correctly?”, of course, I would, I would tell  them how to do that, is, it's more reacting and  

being responsive to the specific student. Now  there are times when students are pronouncing  

things so incorrectly, and perhaps it's something  offensive, or perhaps you know they're getting  

frustrated by that, that I would definitely teach  them, kind of, more discrete pronunciation skills,  

but it's kind of on a case-by-case basis and  I think it's different with adults who have  

perhaps a better sense of who they are and what  they want and what's next for them in life that,  

for me, it seems like that's a better  fit for adults to kind of seek that out.  

Rachel: It does seem like, for  

a lot of my adult students, it is the final piece  of what they need to make happen for themselves.

Brooke: I think it's an interesting  

kind of line of inquiry is to think about how  pronunciation and identity fit together for  

students for immigrant students, and oftentimes  especially middle and high school students develop  

an identity of resistance to what they perceive  as, like, school culture, which, kind of, standard  

English pronunciation would fall under school  culture that they almost intentionally try to,  

kind of, resist sounding like a native speaker,  because it's part of their identity to be a  

little bit different and to resist kind of these  assumptions that are placed on them. So I think  

I don't have a lot to say about that, I think it's  an interesting thing to consider. We have identity  

and pronunciation and all that fit together  in terms of how a student sees themselves.

Rachel: Yes, and how people perceive them.  

One comment that I get on my videos sometimes  is, "why do you think everyone needs to sound  

American?" And my response is, “I don't think that  at all.” I am not telling people that they need to  

sound American. I'm trying to help people sound  however they want to sound. Some people want to  

sound American because they've lived here for  30 years and they just want to 100% be American  

and sound American and they don't want people  asking them anymore where they're from. Other  

people just want to be able to be understood  and they don't care if they have an accent,  

they're happy with that, they just want to  be able to converse more easily. So I think,  

I do think it's controversial because it has  to do the attitude of, you know, if you're  

in America speak English and if you're telling  people they shouldn't have an accent then that's,  

that is saying, you know, who you are and where  you're from isn't valued here, which is never my  

intent with that. My intention is always to help  people meet their communication goals. Brooke,  

I have one final question for you, what makes  you excited about your job teaching teachers?

Brooke: What makes me the most excited is really  

just the ability to open up teachers’ perspectives  to the lives of English language learners and,  

I mean, I grew up in a small town where I probably  never interacted with someone who didn't speak  

English until, I don't know, I was probably 15 or  16 years old. And so many of my students come from  

similar background, where they just haven't been  exposed to people who are different from them,  

and so the opportunity to, kind of, invite them  into the cultural richness that we have in our  

country and throughout the world and understanding  diversity and issues of equity, there's just so  

much that they have yet to experience, and I love  being able to invite them into that and to make it  

a part of their professional life, that it's not  just you do step one-two-three and you're a great  

teacher, that there are all these complexities  that they need to learn to wrestle with and that's  

really one of the great things about being  a teacher, is you just never stop learning.  

Rachel: Great advice for anyone.

David: Thanks so much.

Brooke: Thank you for having me.

Rachel: Yeah. Thank you  

Dr. Kandel-Cisco for coming on this podcast and  sharing all your insight, we really appreciate  

it. And again if you need some help with the  words, you couldn't understand everything,  

no problem at all visit Rachelsenglish.com/podcast  and you can find a free copy of the transcript for  

this episode. If you're not subscribed to this  podcast, please be sure to do that at iTunes  

or Stitcher and if you're inclined please feel  free to leave a review. I do read them all and  

it's great for me to get feedback on what  you like or don't like about this podcast.