My Non-Native Speaker Experience┃Learn American English Pronunciation On the Go

Rachel: Welcome to the Rachel's English Podcast. I'm am Rachel and I put together this podcast for  

people who are studying English as a second language. If you need help understanding this  

podcast, there's always a free transcript that you can download for each episode. Please go  

to Rachelsenglish.com/podcast  and search for this episode.

Today, my husband David and I are going  to be discussing a recent trip that we  

took to Italy. We were there for a  month, and we just got back about  

a week ago. We're going to discuss what it  was like for us to be non-native speakers,  

and not only non-native speakers, but non-native speakers with very little Italian skill.

We're going to talk about what that was  like, from the language perspective,  

and then also just from our personal  experience, our, our personalities,  

how did it feel to be in another country  speaking another language. David,  

to start I'd like to ask you, what did you do  to prep, as far as language, before we left?

David: Well, not very much, and it's definitely a regret. You were doing a lot of practicing  

with your audio course, and so ... There were some time when we were sitting together in the  

living room and I was doing something else and you were practicing, so I sort of ... I think  

I absorbed a little bit of the set of sounds and a couple bits of vocabulary, but I really didn't  

do very much on my own, and it's a regret. I, I really wish I had done a little bit more.

Rachel: Do we need to study Italian  now and go back again in a few months?

David: Yes.

Rachel: Okay. We'll do that.

David: Si.

Rachel: For me, I, I had actually taken  an adult, night learning class in Italian,  

like, 10 years ago, when I was in graduate school. And,  

you know, that was ... I remember our Italian teacher. He was fun, but it was, you know,  

no one was taking it super seriously. It was mostly people, who were just taking it for fun.

David: Mm-hmm. (affirmative)

Rachel: Um. And then I did,  maybe two months before we left,  

I did start listening to an audio course  by a teacher named Michel Thomas or no,  

Michel Tomas. I can't remember how exactly he pronounces his name. And I had fun with that,  

but I felt like he went really far with,  like conjugations, before really teaching  

very much vocabulary at all. I felt like I did  not go into my trip with a very good vocabulary.

David: Yeah.

Rachel: Like, he taught you how to use  sentences and he was teaching conjugation,  

so he was constantly using “it” as the object,  

so like, I didn't learn. I did, I  learned how to say, "It," a lot.

David: Oh. Yeah.

Rachel: Because he was more concerned with the verb conjugations it seemed. Yeah so,  

had I to do it again, I would have spent a  little bit more time on vocabulary. I also  

think I would have spent some time thinking about situations, where I would want to  

be using English, and then I would have,  sort of memorized a specific set of words.

David: Yeah. Me too.

Rachel: Like, highchair and car seat.

David: Oh. Right. Yeah.

Rachel: We really needed to use those a lot. Okay, did you study at all, once you got to Italy?

David: I didn't study formally, but I was paying attention to various things, and I think it was  

those small situations that you were just  referencing, where I really started to pay  

attention. The small, everyday phrases. You know, how to say, "Good Afternoon," or "Hi." How to say,  

"Excuse me," when I had done something that ... I had gotten in someone's way. How to say  

the numbers, you know, just one to five. I hadn't even, you know, learned to do that before I left.  

How to say, "Please," and "I'm sorry," and "Thank you." I was really paying attention to the native  

speakers around me, in situations when they were, were saying those words, saying those phrases.

Rachel: Yeah. I remember one time, we  were kind of discussing, when you're  

cutting through a crowd, you know when you're sort of getting in front of somebody. Like,  

what's the polite thing to say there?  I remember, I thought I had ... Well,  

I had learned like, scusa, or scusi. I don't  even remember now, when you're cutting,  

or when you're trying to get someone's attention, but that's a different word, and I remember you  

felt like you had heard somebody say something like, permetto. Well, what was the word-

David: I heard that. No, it was,  it was I think “scuciata” (sp?).

Rachel: Oh, “scuciata” (sp?).

David: Like, I was in line at the grocery  store and they needed to get through the line.

Rachel: Oh, to pass, to get to the other side.

David: Yeah like, I just  need to get right over here.

Rachel: Yeah.

David: Let me just, let me just  cut through a tiny bit. It was  

like “scuciata” (sp?). And I was like,  "Oh. Whoa. That's how to use that."

Rachel: It's so fun, when you're, when you're hearing just a tiny phrase, so you actually  

have time to absorb it, as someone who  doesn't really know the language. When  

you're just hearing a tiny phrase and you're  seeing exactly how it's used, that's so fun.

David: Absolutely.

Rachel: Yeah. When  

you were in a situation where you didn't know what to say. You, you knew in English what you  

would say, but you did not know how to say it in Italian. What would you do in those cases?

David: I think that my default was to smile,  and obviously try to use some hand motions,  

sort of like, put my hands together and sort of said,  

"Ah. Excuse me." Made a motion for excuse  me, with a little bit of a bow. I mean,  

you know it was, it was terrible. I  felt like such a, felt so incompetent.

Rachel: Yeah.

David: And I was embarrassed. And I  think that's why I wish that I would  

have spent even a couple of hours on the basic phrases, cause it was incredibly embarrassing.

Rachel: Yeah.

David: It was, you know, I realized once it  was too late, wow, I am, I'm going through  

the world without these every day phrases  in hand, and it's an incredible assumption,  

or I'm imposing my ignorance on the  entire world around me. You know,  

not to be able to say, "I'm sorry for  stepping on your toe in line." You know you-

Rachel: Or even just, "I'm sorry."

David: Just I'm sorry. Oh, that's what I mean, [crosstalk] you know, forget about how to say,  

"Toe." But, just to say, "I'm sorry."  You know, it's a really ... I,  

I just realized I was imposing my ignorance onto people around me, and I was embarrassed.

Rachel: You're really relying on  other people's kind of, kindness.

David: Yeah.

Rachel: I felt that way once I was,  I was doing a little bit of shopping,  

and I actually was surprised  how intimidating I found that,  

to go into a store and not knowing exactly  the culture around, like trying things on,  

or whatever. You know, I know exactly how  everyone expects that to work in the US,  

but I didn't know how people expect it to work in Italy. And most of the time, I would go into  

a store and sort of look around and just leave. Cause I was like, too shy to do anything about it.

And, one time I was in a store and a woman approached me, and said something and I  

didn't understand what she said and I smiled and I said, "I'm sorry. Do you speak English?" That,  

that is one thing I learned to say in Italian.  And that was useful. Parla l’inglese? That  

was what ... That was phrase I was using a lot.  But it was nice to at least start in Italian.

David: Yeah.

Rachel: And when she said, "Oh yes," and she switched to English, I just felt this sense of  

relief, and I felt like ... It felt like an act  of kindness on her part to identify where I was  

at and what I needed, and to like, be willing  to go there, and I was just thinking about,  

yeah, how just, coming to where someone  is. You know, even though I was in Italy,  

you know, and I had made some effort  to learn Italian, but it wasn't enough.

For her to, so willingly switch to English,  

and I know that this is common. Lots of  people in other countries know English,  

especially people who would work in the  tourist industry. But still, I think, you know,  

someone who is in that situation that's willing to really work on their English in order to be able  

to communicate with others, is such a friendly and kind gesture, and I was so thankful for it.

David: Absolutely. I had a similar experience. I went, when we were in Rome. There was a cheese  

shop right underneath the apartment that we were staying in. And I could smell it when I walked  

by. I could look in. It looked so cozy and homey and real. And so, I decided I was going to go in  

and get some cheese and meats for us to have before dinner, and I go in and I sort of like,  

walked around. There was, you know there were a few people at the counter. And, I went in and I  

was just so intimidated that I walked in and then walked back out. And, I, I just couldn't deal.

Rachel: Yeah.

David: And so, then I, I went for a  walk. I walked around for about 30  

minutes. I was coming back to our  apartment, and I said to myself,  

"I'm going in there come hell or high water.  No matter what I'm walking out of there with  

some freakin cheese." And, I was still just as scared, you know, and I had to go in and I said,  

I think by that point I knew how to say  please, and I said, "Please," and pointed  

some stuff and she sort of knew a little bit  of English and you know, I got it done, and ...

Rachel: And that was some good cheese.

David: It was some good cheese. That  payoff for that adventure rogue moment.

Rachel: You got rewarded.

David: Big time.

Rachel: You got rewarded for  pushing out of your comfort zone.

David: It was really good cheese. But, it was a reminder to me about my own learning, my own,  

my own student self and how I learn  languages and also a reminder about,  

you know for Rachel's English students, how much they have to push themselves to make  

that leap again and again and again and again. And it takes some courage. You know, I think ...

Rachel: And energy.

David: Takes courage and energy.  But, I also I felt this, you know,  

I had, I had changed ... I had interrupted  the inertia of not being like that. You know,  

like the rest of the situations that  were similar, were a little bit easier.

Rachel: Yeah.

David: It's kind of like you build  up some momentum. You build up some,  

as we've talked about in another podcast,  we, you build up more comfort with being  

uncomfortable. Each time you do  that, it's a little bit easier.

Rachel: Absolutely. So, would you say  you had any conversations in Italian?

David: No. I wish. You know,  it's such an expressive language,  

and people are talking with their  hands, and people are laughing. So,  

I was dying to get in on those  conversations. You know, I,  

I did get comfortable saying a few things, but I would have loved to engage people in a deeper way.

Rachel: You know, I'm thinking, the only  conversation I think that I had that was  

100% Italian, was when we took that wrong turn in Umbria, and we went down that dirt road for like,  

quite a ways, until we just found  a hut and then we got out. So,  

we were in the countryside, and not super  isolated, but a little bit. And, we,  

we don't know where we're going. We're looking for the house that we're staying in that night,  

which we rented on Airbnb. And, we think maybe we found it, but we're not at all sure. And so,  

we get out and we get Stoney out of his  car seat, and he's sort of running around.

And then, this man comes up from around  the building and I said, "Francesco?"  

And he was not Francesco. So, and he did not speak any English, so I had to try to explain  

to him that we were looking for this house.  We were looking for Francesco's house. And,  

you know, I was able to show him the address. That helped. And then, he was sort of able to tell me,  

gesture, use some words that I understood how to get to where we were going. That was,  

that was awesome. I remember leaving that feeling like, man, even when our language skills hardly  

overlap with gestures and smiles, and repetition and trying things different ways, you are able to  

get your point across. And, so we got to where we were going. Would you say that you were ever in a  

case where, saying something flowed really easily in Italian, like you didn't have to think about I?

David: Yes. I can say that, that  happened. I didn't have conversations,  

but I did have moments where  the Italian came flying out,  

and that was such a good feeling. We  drove down a one way street the wrong way.

Rachel: Just for a block you guys.

David: Maybe three. When we were leaving Florence,  

and people were, you know, people were  sort of waving and being like, "No,  

no, no. This is the wrong way," down  the one way street. And I was saying,  

"mi dispiace." I'm sorry. And, it just came out in Italian first, and that was a cool feeling.

Rachel: Yeah. I remember I was ordering some ... I went to this fruit and vegetable shop in Naples,  

and I was wanting to get some green beans for  Stoney, and I had no idea how to say anything,  

so I just pointed to the green beans. And he starts putting these huge handfuls in. And I said,  

really quickly, "Troppo," which is not  a word that I had been studying. Like,  

I had not studied that word. That word,  I couldn't believe that my mind just,  

like blurted it out. It came from  having studied opera translations.

David: What is the word?

Rachel: It means like, too much.

David: Wow.

Rachel: Yeah. And actually, that was really fun, hearing words that I had learned from opera like,  

someone said, "Basta," once, which means enough, and ... Just like remembering, hearing words and,  

that I have only ever studied in the context of opera, or one time when we were getting gelato,  

the woman who was scooping the ice cream is kind of taken by Stoney and said something  

about like, will you give me a kiss? And I  recognized the word for kiss. It's funny,  

the words you learn in opera. You  know they're like, kiss, love, death.

David: Right.

Rachel: Betrayal. Anyway that was really fun and I remember I was almost taken aback, by  

how that word just sprang out of my  mouth, when it probably been years,  

since I had learned it in the context of  some opera libretto. Okay. Do you have  

any advice for someone who's starting  from absolute scratch, with a language?

David: I guess, well, yeah, I eluded to it  earlier. I think if you spend two or three  

hours getting down the basics, it's just going to make your first couple weeks so much easier.  

You know, I think I could have cut the sense of almost constant embarrassment that I had,  

which them makes it easier to be observing and playful, and a little bit more at ease,  

which obviously helps the learning  process. I think learning some of  

those basics ahead of time, via whatever  source you have available would be great.

Rachel: Actually, one thing that I  was using a lot at the beginning was,  

I would walk in somewhere and I would  say, "Bongiorno. Parla Inglese?" If  

I knew that I didn't have a chance to  communicate, I would greet in Italian,  

then ask if they spoke English and try to use a really friendly tone, with a smile on my face.

David: Yeah. Right.

Rachel: I mean, even just learning  a greeting and do you speak English,  

or whatever, or yeah, whatever  your language is, I think can help.

David: Completely agree. Well, it also makes me think about one of your videos on YouTube,  

that has been really popular and  I have a new appreciation for now,  

is the one on introductions and how to, you know, how to greet people and introduce yourself.

Rachel: Yeah.

David: A lot of people have  really appreciated that video.

Rachel: Yeah, it's done well.

David: And now uh. Yeah. Um. I have  a new, a new vantage point from that,  

from which to view the popularity of that. You know, if I had looked up the parallel for Italian,  

and had spent, you know, a half hour watching that a couple times, man, that would have been great.

Rachel: Yeah. Totally. Actually, that reminds me. That, that brings to mind. The video  

that you're talking about is called, Greeting  Americans. And, I think I could ... It's sort of  

more phrases that you would use. Hey, what's up? Hey. How are you? I think actually,  

we should do another video that's just  on greetings that you would use with  

somebody that you don't know, like,  in a store, where you wouldn't say,  

"Hey. How are you?" But, you would just say, "Hello," or, "Good morning," or whatever.

Okay. Video idea. Uh. Okay,  so David, let's talk about,  

how did it feel to be a non-native speaker. You said you felt embarrassed by having zero skill.  

And remember we were talking about how awkward it was to take Stoney to a playground, and to be  

having him interact with other kids, and us not being able to interact with the parents at all.

David: Yeah. Normally, you know, when we're home, the playground is actually kind of great,  

cause it's, it's an easy way to meet new friends, and your kids are playing together and you say,  

"Oh hey. Where do you guys live?" And, we  can quickly strike up conversation. And so,  

it was really painful to,  honestly it was boring to spend  

an hour at a playground and not be able  to talk to the adults. It was rough.

Rachel: Yeah. I also found myself feeling  awkward, like it's one thing to just decide,  

okay, I'm not going to be able to talk to someone. I'm not going to be able to start a conversation,  

but then it's another thing to have like, the fear that someone's going to start a conversation with  

you. Like, it's not just boring. It's also like, a  little bit unsettling like, trying not to make eye  

contact, or hoping my kid doesn't do something that I feel like I need to apologize for.

David: Yeah. Right. Right.

Rachel: Or whatever. You know one,  there was this one funny moment,  

when we were in Genoa. I forget where we were going. Oh, we were going to the Funicular,  

the train that goes up the side  of the hill of the mountain. And  

remember we stopped in that little tiny  piazza, to get cappuccini, and pastries?

David: Mm-hmm. (affirmative)

Rachel: Yeah, so I, I went up to the pastry  counter and I order pastries and she said to go,  

in Italian, and I didn't understand. And then  she switched to English, and then I said,  

you know, "What was, how did you say that  in Italian?" And then she told me, and then,  

you know, being the language teacher that I am, the Rachel's English Academy teacher that I am,  

I wanted to repeat it over, and over. She  said, "Portare via. Portare via." And so,  

I was like, "Okay. Portare via.  Portare via." And then I was  

repeating it out loud and then it was  totally confusing everyone around me.

They thought that I didn't understand  what was happening and I was like,  

"No. I do understand. We don't want to take it. We [that was really funny] want to eat  

it here. I just want to practice this phrase,  because it's the only way to actually remember  

it." And I was just, you know, I just heard a  native speaker do it, so I was wanting to take  

advantage of that second, to [absolutely]  repeat it, over and over. And it was, yeah.

People didn't understand what was going on, but I actually, I encourage my students to do this,  

and this is something I totally did in Germany, is when you hear someone say a phrase that you  

just learned, that, in that moment. Like, if you can, just kind of mumble it under your breath. You  

know, you don't have to do it full voice like I  did, and confuse everybody, but if you're able to  

somehow disengage, and from the conversation for a second, and repeat that phrase over a few times,  

I think that's awesome. Or, depending on the kind of language learner, the kind of brain you have,  

repeat it a few times, and then quick,  scribble it down if you can write it.

David: Also, I also think, what was really neat  a couple times, and I saw you do, and then I  

ended up doing it some too is, like basically getting someone to give you a little lesson.

Rachel: Right.

David: I remember we were sitting in Napoli at the café in the morning and we [oh, right] were  

ordering and, you know basically you say it  one way, and the person corrects you and then  

you smile and you try again, and then the person corrects you again. And basically, people love to  

help you get it right, when they see you making an effort. So, I think for people learning, you know,  

working on their American English, I think that trying to say it, and then someone corrects you,  

if you smile and say, "Oh right. Here. Let me try again," and then you say it again, people are very  

likely to be like, "Oh yeah. You got it," or ,"  No. Wait, wait. No. Well, almost you got it."

Rachel: Yeah.

David: People love to feel like they're  the expert and to help you learn.

Rachel: Yep. If someone corrects  you, really take advantage of that,  

cause most people don't. Most people won't. If they understand you, they'll just keep going.

David: Right.

Rachel: But, if someone actually corrects you, that's, I always think that is awesome. That's  

like, oh wait. They're willing to engage with me like this. Let me try it again, and actually I  

think that I would love to learn how to say,  "Could you help me learn how to say that?"  

Because, when I was out, you know, trying to say something and then they would switch to English,  

because I didn't know how, then I was losing the opportunity to learn that, so, if, I wish  

that I had thought a couple more times to say, "Could you teach me how to say that in Italian?"

David: Well, and I think another video idea for Rachel's English is to go over the phrases that  

someone could use, to [yeah] engage a native speaker. Things like, "Oh hey. How'd I sound?"

Rachel: Could you help me say that?

David: Hey wait. Oh. Yeah. Say that again, or ...

Rachel: Can you say it more slowly? I'd  like to repeat, or something like that.

David: Do you mind if I try to say it again?  Do you mind giving me some feedback about  

what sounded right and what didn't? I mean, that would be ... I think if you're really,  

again, if you're in a context where someone is really interested and does correct you,  

it's an invitation to have a five minute  conversation. They'd probably love it.

Rachel: Right. Or, in the case, I think it was,  I was learning how to correctly say, "The bill,  

please." And, il conto. And, I wasn't sure if it was conte, you know, I hadn't really paid much  

attention to the exact. I knew the general  idea, but that wasn't good enough. And so,  

even just in that case, I was just trying to  learn this one phrase, and he, and I said,  

"How do you say it," and then he told me and I was like, "That's right." And then I said it back a  

couple times. Even just an exchange like that can be 30 seconds, where a native speaker can  

teach you, and, and if you've just said, "How do you say it," and then you're repeating it,  

there's a chance that they might correct  you, if your pronunciation isn't quite great.

David: Uh huh.

Rachel: And it was so funny. There were times when I felt like I had gotten my ... You know, I,  

I, I care about pronunciation. That's kind of my thing. And there were a couple times where I would  

say a phrase that I knew was the right phrase, and people wouldn't understand me. And then I  

was like, "Okay. I'm still not doing something right. I don't know exactly yet what it is." But,  

that was interesting to me, to know that I was saying it right, or to know that I knew the words,  

like a, the actual words themselves I knew were right, but something about my pronunciation was  

too studied, or too bookish, not natural enough for someone to figure it out. That was sad.

David: And it gets back to something that we talk about, a lot about mindset. I think if you're in  

a mindset where you can make a mistake and then sort of smile and, and work with a native speaker  

on correcting it, that kind of a lesson, and  you're right. Even if it is just 30 seconds.  

That lesson is lodged in a particular context with a particular memory. You know, like I can  

immediately call back to mind,  what it looked like, and felt like,  

and sounded like, sitting at that café,  when that guy gave us the mini lesson.

Rachel: Right.

David: I'm mean, it's just so  different than learning it from a book.

Rachel: And here's a crazy idea. If you're in a case where you know you're going to be interacting  

with an American for a very brief period of  time, asking for a bill, ordering a pastry,  

whatever. Get out your phone and turn it on. Turn on the voice recorder. Then, that way, if  

they correct you, you can get the native speaker on tape. Go back and listen to it a few times.

David: Yeah.

Rachel: I really encourage my  students to do some recording,  

and I think I need to be even, make  it an even stronger recommendation.  

Recording yourselves speaking and then going back and listening to it later. Actually,  

that's something we discussed in a  recent podcast with Eliot Friesen.

David: Mm-hmm. (affirmative) Rachel: Guys. If you didn't catch that podcast,

go back and look for it. We were talking  about the IELTS Exam. He is the Magoosh,  

which is a company that does test prep materials. He's the Magoosh IELTS experts. So, Eliot Friesen,  

yeah, that, that podcast came out, maybe  about a month ago. Not too long ago,  

so if you go to Rachelsenglish.com/podcast, it  should be on that front page. Check it out. Well,  

David, I think that sort of wraps up. Do you  have anything else that you wanted to add about,  

what it felt like to be there, or any  other little anecdotes from the trip?

David: Oh. I don't think so. It just, it  gave me such a new appreciation, or I guess  

a renewed appreciation for your students and for people who are learning English. You know, I'm,  

I run into people a lot and it just gave me  a new appreciation for your students, and for  

everybody else, who's trying to learn English. It is so much of a not-straightforward language,  

and so, it just, it made me um, made me  remember how much I want to, you know,  

slow down and take a minute or two to, you know, communicate with them and help them,  

and it made me want to be that person, who takes the extra time to correct someone and to engage  

someone in a little bit of conversation. Uh, so, I think it, um, it opened me up a little bit.

Rachel: Yeah. It's really amazing how travel  will do that. If only everybody was able to  

travel more, maybe the world would see smaller and everyone would get along. Wouldn't that  

be nice? Okay, on that note guys. Thanks so much for listening to this podcast. Again,  

if you would like a free copy, of the transcript, just visit rachelsenglish.com/podcast,  

and look for this episode. This is part two in a series of podcasts that we're doing that are,  

that's coming out of our time in  Italy, so be sure to listen next week.

And actually even better, if you haven't  subscribed, go to the iTunes store,  

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English Podcast. That's it guys, and thanks so much for listening. We'll see you next week.