The TRUTH About How We TALK And How We Get HEARD ✊ With Samara Bay

33,739 views ・ 2020-06-09

Accent's Way English with Hadar


Please double-click on the English subtitles below to play the video.

00:00
Hey everyone. I have a very exciting episode for you today because we have a very
0
89
4771
00:04
special guest. And that guest is Samara Bay. Samara is a Hollywood dialect coach. Now I
1
4860
7030
00:11
don't want to drop any names, but she did coach on the set of 'Wonder Woman 2', and
2
11890
6340
00:18
worked with Gal Gadot. Just saying. She's also a voice coach and she's the host
3
18230
5610
00:23
of the podcast 'Permission to Speak', which I am obsessed with. This is actually how I
4
23840
5330
00:29
got to know Samara, I'm a huge fan of the show. And I actually contacted her and she
5
29170
5220
00:34
was more than happy to come and speak to us. So in this episode, we talk about pretty much
6
34390
5900
00:40
everything: about accents, and dialects, and the voice, and what it means to be a native
7
40290
5940
00:46
speaker and a non-native speaker. And she also shared with us a pretty cool method to
8
46230
4150
00:50
learn how to pronounce the English vowels. So you better stick around. I am so honored
9
50380
5929
00:56
to have her here. Let's welcome Samara Bay.
10
56309
2770
00:59
Hi, Samara. <Both laughing>
11
59079
3451
01:02
Samara: Hi, Hadar. How are you? Hadar: I'm beside myself. I'm so happy to
12
62530
6619
01:09
have you here, here in my studio, in Tel Aviv. Samara: That's right, that's right. Yeah.
13
69149
6391
01:15
I mean, you know, look, I do not want to say that there's a billion silver linings for
14
75540
4489
01:20
Coronavirus because there are not, but one of them is that distance means nothing anymore.
15
80029
4770
01:24
Hadar: Right, absolutely, it feels like I can almost hug you.
16
84799
5680
01:30
Samara: I'm feeling it. And also it seems like it's been really hot in Tel Aviv, and
17
90479
5300
01:35
I just got this like mad rush of heat. I mean, granted I'm in Los Angeles, so it's also hot
18
95779
3830
01:39
here, but I do feel like I'm like really flushed as though we're sharing a space together,
19
99609
5180
01:44
so... Hadar: Well, thank you for being here. The
20
104789
4200
01:48
first time I heard your voice, first of all, then your name, then your message. I felt
21
108989
6391
01:55
like you are my soulmate, and I need to connect with you. And luckily, I was able to do that.
22
115380
7239
02:02
And I'm so grateful that you're here because I think that what you will be sharing here
23
122619
4731
02:07
and the conversation that we're going to have is going to be very meaningful for so many
24
127350
3719
02:11
people listening to this. So, thank you for being here.
25
131069
2881
02:13
Samara: My pleasure, thank you. Thank you for discovering me. I didn't know that you
26
133950
4410
02:18
existed and your community existed. And now I'm like, of course, of course. You know,
27
138360
4310
02:22
I mean, we were talking a little bit before we started recording, I'm Hollywood-based
28
142670
3899
02:26
in terms of the dialect work that I've done. And so I never really like went down the rabbit
29
146569
5640
02:32
hole of seeing like what the internet version is.
30
152209
2471
02:34
What you do when you don't have necessarily a coach right in front of you, and you're
31
154680
3229
02:37
working one-on-one. And it's really wonderful to find that there's somebody else who's talking
32
157909
5121
02:43
about, you know, how we talk the way that I do.
33
163030
2929
02:45
Hadar: Right. Well, yes. Thank you. And for those who don't know you, what don't you introduce
34
165959
10420
02:56
yourself? Samara: Okay. Well, so as I said, I'm in Hollywood.
35
176379
3980
03:00
I spent my twenties in New York on the East coast of the US pursuing an acting career.
36
180359
7841
03:08
I have an MFA in acting, Shakespeare's like my totally foundational background, the nerdiest
37
188200
4890
03:13
of the nerdy. But you know, it has served me well. And now...
38
193090
4399
03:17
Hadar: You and me both. Samara: I mean, I'm not apologizing for it.
39
197489
4411
03:21
I'm just saying, I'm well aware that it is a way into acting and to speaking, it's not
40
201900
4759
03:26
the only way in. But it served me in ways I absolutely could never have anticipated.
41
206659
6991
03:33
And you know, part of my story, the last part of the story is that in the last few years,
42
213650
5979
03:39
unrelated to Coronavirus, which obviously is affecting the US currently in in ways that,
43
219629
5950
03:45
um, you don't see an end in sight. But even prior to that, for the last few years,
44
225579
6431
03:52
really, since the 2016 election, I started coaching people who running for office. And
45
232010
7379
03:59
sort of testing out if the way that I was working with actors on their voice and their
46
239389
6061
04:05
speech and their dialects for stories, you know, for how they tell their stories and
47
245450
5049
04:10
for how the stories of Hollywood get told, if that really was applicable outside of the
48
250499
4761
04:15
entertainment industry. And, you know, obviously, I'm thinking in
49
255260
4490
04:19
terms of vowels and consonants, but I'm also not, right. I mean, I'm thinking in terms
50
259750
3870
04:23
of musicality, I'm thinking in terms of how our thoughts and our intentions and our heart
51
263620
4710
04:28
and our gut connect to what comes out of our mouth. And that, needless to say, is relevant
52
268330
5380
04:33
to everybody. Am I allowed to swear here? It's the internet.
53
273710
6840
04:40
And so, you know, the first gamble, that I took with like, am I valuable in this realm
54
280550
5470
04:46
was with women who were running for office. I have a bit of a background also in helping
55
286020
4519
04:50
scientists. My dad is a scientist, so they were sort of in my late twenties, early thirties.
56
290539
4141
04:54
I did some work helping coach scientists on public speaking. So I had that background
57
294680
4760
04:59
as well. And then I started to experiment once that
58
299440
2460
05:01
was really working with my friends circle, with entrepreneurs, with people who were pitching
59
301900
5600
05:07
to Hollywood, you know, pitching in meetings, but not necessarily with creative backgrounds,
60
307500
4080
05:11
or with performance backgrounds. And what is it, especially for women, especially
61
311580
4420
05:16
for marginalized people of any sort who have been told in all kinds of subtle ways or,
62
316000
5450
05:21
you know, not so subtle ways, their entire life, that they're not what power sounds and
63
321450
3309
05:24
looks like. I work with people on like how to change that story, how to teach the people
64
324759
5791
05:30
around them that there's a new way that power can sound. And a lot of that is, you know,
65
330550
4030
05:34
that the world has to change, but a lot of it is that we can affect the way that we are
66
334580
4780
05:39
showing up in spaces. Hadar: How much of it is the mindset and the
67
339360
4890
05:44
conversation around it, and maybe sometimes taking action? And how much of it is physical?
68
344250
6730
05:50
Samara: It's such a good question. It's really both. And I think mindset is more important.
69
350980
7430
05:58
I mean, not that they have to be in competition, right? But yes, I think that if I were to
70
358410
7270
06:05
give somebody a one-minute warmup to do before really, you know, scary conversation, whether
71
365680
5780
06:11
it's a public speaking situation or just like a "I need a raise" type of thing, I would
72
371460
5870
06:17
say the physical matters a lot in that particular case. Because getting our body loose and feeling
73
377330
6209
06:23
playful, dancing for a minute, if we only have one minute, I would actually just literally
74
383539
4541
06:28
tell people to dance and hum a little bit. But that is also because of the mindset aspect
75
388080
5540
06:33
of it, which I would encourage prior to that one minute. But the mindset aspect of it is
76
393620
5320
06:38
about telling ourselves in a really meaningful way, doing work on ourselves to trust, trust,
77
398940
6180
06:45
trust that we deserve to be in that space. I mean, you know, we do. And in such subtle
78
405120
8030
06:53
ways that even the strongest among us tell ourselves, but they don't really want to hear
79
413150
5299
06:58
what I have to say. You know, I have this podcast and I've interviewed
80
418449
2530
07:00
almost exclusively women, and most of them are really powerful, and they're on my podcast
81
420979
4351
07:05
because they're experts in some capacity. And I've heard even among them, what happens
82
425330
4149
07:09
in my coachings. Which is that when you ask a woman or somebody who has been, you know,
83
429479
5561
07:15
systematically told that their voice doesn't matter, to tell a story about themselves they
84
435040
4119
07:19
figure out a reason not to. Hadar: I think that I totally relate. And,
85
439159
7820
07:26
you know, I've been teaching, I've been helping non-native speakers for over 10 years. And
86
446979
4302
07:31
the first few years of my coaching had to do only with the technical stuff. Cause that's
87
451281
6818
07:38
what I knew, and that's what I did. I had to kind of overcome a lot of challenges and
88
458099
5011
07:43
barriers, but I wasn't thinking about it, right? I was just doing it as I was on the
89
463110
5580
07:48
go. And once I started incorporating mindset and
90
468690
4199
07:52
limiting, like changing limiting beliefs and reframing, and to talk about, to actually
91
472889
7770
08:00
give them some actionable tasks to do, and to show up and to speak up the results. And
92
480659
7031
08:07
I kept on doing the technical stuff and even less, I felt that the results were so much
93
487690
6680
08:14
better. Because your podcast's name is 'Permission
94
494370
2569
08:16
to Speak'... this is exactly what it's about. Because people... it's funny, cause I always
95
496939
5350
08:22
talk about it in terms of people who have accents and make mistakes and get stuck, so
96
502289
4041
08:26
they don't feel that their voices deserve to be heard. They think that they're going
97
506330
4030
08:30
to waste people's time, people are not going to understand them. Or they're going to think
98
510360
5880
08:36
that they're stupid because they made a grammar mistake, even though it's their second language.
99
516240
4730
08:40
And it makes total sense. I mean, it's scientific that you would make mistakes.
100
520970
3790
08:44
Samara: And those people that we're going to be talking to, don't speak more than one
101
524760
4000
08:48
language, if they're speaking to native speakers. Hadar: This is part of the work. Although
102
528760
3980
08:52
it doesn't really help them, like they don't believe it. Right? It's the imposter syndrome,
103
532740
4740
08:57
it's all of that. That they feel that they're just not enough. In a second language even
104
537480
4920
09:02
more, that's even heightened. So I absolutely see how that has worked for you as well.
105
542400
5290
09:07
Samara: And honestly, the phrase 'permission to speak' has ended up resonating with me
106
547690
5030
09:12
in more ways, since I launched the podcast. And also, I just sold a book on the same topic.
107
552720
6330
09:19
I know, to Penguin Random House. Now I'm writing it, so it's scary to talk about it. But it
108
559050
9850
09:28
made me really think about that phrase 'permission to speak'.
109
568900
4620
09:33
Because we can talk about the speaking part, but it doesn't really work without the permission
110
573520
3981
09:37
part. And the permission part is how to give ourselves permission, you know. How do we
111
577501
3699
09:41
do that? How do we think about the ways that we've set up these narratives in our mind
112
581200
4030
09:45
that, you know, how I sound is a worst way of speaking English than the people I'm speaking
113
585230
6050
09:51
to, so they're going to be judging me. And even if they are, you know, we have ways
114
591280
4510
09:55
that we can either reinforce that or start to break that down. I mean, definitely, just
115
595790
4880
10:00
recently over the internet In this new era, I coached a gentleman who's from Iran who
116
600670
6840
10:07
was talking about ,and whose English really is quite choppy. And he's quite new to the
117
607510
4380
10:11
US, he's a refugee. But he's really joyful, and was clearly, like,
118
611890
4930
10:16
game to try something new. And I said, "You know, would you consider practicing ahead
119
616820
4970
10:21
of time?" I'm not big on, obviously, like memorizing things that we say that doesn't
120
621790
3420
10:25
sound organic, and it's not usually a great recipe for success. "But maybe you could work
121
625210
5580
10:30
on a few key things that just bring you a little sparkle". That say something like,
122
630790
5290
10:36
you know, "English is new to me, but I'm doing... I'm thrilled with how well I can communicate
123
636080
4770
10:40
with you". Or something that's like not an apology, but
124
640850
2810
10:43
an acknowledgement. And just doing one of those up top is a way of warming up any space
125
643660
5230
10:48
you're in, and acknowledging the problem, and making the problem the solution.
126
648890
4680
10:53
Hadar: And also, like always being in a state, in process, right? So it's like, "It's new
127
653570
6550
11:00
to me, but I'm doing my best to communicate well, I'm doing my best to be clear".
128
660120
4800
11:04
Samara: Right. Or I learned a new word. You know, if that, if he, if he did or, you know,
129
664920
3970
11:08
I learned, I just... you know, I'm so excited to talk to you, American person who might
130
668890
6380
11:15
be judging me, because, uh, I'm getting better and better every day, still working on it.
131
675270
5120
11:20
You know, like we get to... we get to frame it with the actual words that we say. As much
132
680390
5360
11:25
as you know, with our body language, with our tone of voice, all of that,
133
685750
3220
11:28
it's important to do it before. And it's important to also do it after when our tendency is always
134
688970
5510
11:34
to remember the negative things and all, like all the bad parts.
135
694480
4320
11:38
Hadar: I had once, um, like a group coaching with women, and one of them stood up and she
136
698800
6270
11:45
spoke about, um, this talk that she gave and she was like, she got really quiet. And she
137
705070
6640
11:51
was like, and then I got stuck for a few seconds. Felt like... the end of the world, or it was
138
711710
8600
12:00
30 seconds, I don't know, but... And I asked her, did anyone mention, and it was like,
139
720310
4620
12:04
no, they said it was a great talk, but for me, I felt like, you know, English is not
140
724930
4420
12:09
my thing. I stopped speaking after that. And just like, from this entire talk that
141
729350
4880
12:14
she gave an answered, she got stuck. It happens in your native language as well, but when
142
734230
4060
12:18
it happens in English, you associate and you connect it to English and then you think,
143
738290
3960
12:22
you know, I, this is just not for me. Samara: Well, in all, honestly, because, um,
144
742250
5390
12:27
for the last few months I've been working almost exclusively with people for whom English
145
747640
6290
12:33
is their first language. And we're just actually talking about issues that come up when we're
146
753930
4750
12:38
public speaking, I can say to any of your, you know, viewers who aren't listeners, who
147
758680
5220
12:43
are, who for whom English is their second language or third or fourth or whatever, you
148
763900
3490
12:47
know, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant language skills you guys have.
149
767390
5310
12:52
That this just is... it's so beyond this English as a second language issue. It really is like,
150
772700
5600
12:58
how do we show up as humans? And that I say that, not to say like you're to diminish your
151
778300
5380
13:03
story at all, but to actually give you even more permission of possible that truly this
152
783680
5180
13:08
is a human experience. How we put thoughts from inside our head, which have to do with
153
788860
5300
13:14
feelings, that we have, which do not have words attached. Experiences we have had, which
154
794160
7260
13:21
do not have words attached and dreams that we have, which do not have words attached
155
801420
3850
13:25
and how we communicate those things from inside of us out, is anyone's guess like, how do
156
805270
7760
13:33
we figure out what word goes after what word to try to capture those things I just said
157
813030
4470
13:37
that have no words attached. That is the human experience. And it feels
158
817500
4280
13:41
really front of mind when English is not your first language. And when we're speaking in
159
821780
3860
13:45
a language that isn't our own. I mean, I spent a summer in France when I spoke semi good,
160
825640
5120
13:50
bad French. And I remember like how much I felt, like I owed the people who are listening
161
830760
8500
13:59
to me because the... because of the favor that they were doing by being patient enough
162
839260
4560
14:03
with my bad luck, I mean, I am, well, I really, I really feel what that is. And I want to
163
843820
4840
14:08
say that on top of that, it is a human experience. That communication is messy and imperfect,
164
848660
7370
14:16
and that is, I think it's beauty. And also obviously it's challenge for all of us.
165
856030
5240
14:21
Hadar: Right. So beautiful. And there's something really comforting about that, that we're all
166
861270
5140
14:26
in this together. And also solvable, like if, okay, it's not just about my English.
167
866410
6980
14:33
So when English is no longer the issue, then it's a lot easier to... to speak with fluency
168
873390
7720
14:41
because fluency is only a result of the state of mind and the confidence.
169
881110
3530
14:44
It really has nothing to, I mean, it has to do with vocabulary and grammar and all of
170
884640
3610
14:48
that, but you know, a lot of times when people tell me about how they struggled to speak
171
888250
4670
14:52
at work, I ask them, do you feel, is... do you have the same experience when you're with
172
892920
4380
14:57
your friend over a glass of wine and they say, no, so it's not the English. And this
173
897300
5700
15:03
really correlates with what you're telling. Samara: I'm a big fan also of like, you know,
174
903000
4510
15:07
when we are talking about really like a literal public speaking, like getting on a stage type
175
907510
4150
15:11
of public speaking, which, you know, in the US no one's doing right now, but like, I hope
176
911660
6280
15:17
it for everybody. But you know, when we're talking about that, I'm often, the metaphor
177
917940
4690
15:22
for me is often this idea of scaling up that version of ourselves that we are comfortable
178
922630
4750
15:27
with and not every room can handle that person, you know.
179
927380
4220
15:31
Sometimes our instincts are right that the version of ourselves, when we're with our
180
931600
2830
15:34
friends, having a drink isn't appropriate, but often it is just a slightly heightened
181
934430
5320
15:39
version, a slightly more like breathing, taking pauses, knowing that we have the floor and
182
939750
4110
15:43
no one will interrupt us version of that conversational selves that we all have.
183
943860
6860
15:50
And, you know, for many of us, it just feels so wildly different in those two different
184
950720
6530
15:57
contexts. And if we can, if we can, one of the things that we can say to ourselves as
185
957250
4200
16:01
we're preparing to speak in public, even if it's just in a meeting or whatever, even more
186
961450
4440
16:05
so if it's just a meeting, is what am I like with my favorite people?
187
965890
5090
16:10
How is she or he going to be welcomed in that room? The answer probably is very well. And
188
970980
6160
16:17
we tell ourselves no, but that space is more formal. No, but I can't, I can't dare bring
189
977140
3920
16:21
myself into the room. And, you know, I've talked to a lot of people. I have a, uh, episode
190
981060
5670
16:26
that's coming out of my podcast soon with somebody, I don't want to give it away, but
191
986730
3990
16:30
somebody who has worked with some of the greatest world leaders, and we talked about this issue
192
990720
4540
16:35
of formality. And she said, you know, the best public speakers are comfortable. So what
193
995260
6230
16:41
is it to feel comfortable? And obviously it feels like an oxymoron. It feels like a total
194
1001490
4320
16:45
opposite. You're supposed to be on a stage and feel
195
1005810
2970
16:48
discomfort. We all know culturally like being on a stage is supposed to be scary and awful
196
1008780
4340
16:53
and weird, and you're supposed to hate public speaking. But I think the secret in honestly
197
1013120
4860
16:57
changing who the leaders of the world are, is in us realizing that the version of us
198
1017980
5880
17:03
that is at our most comfortable, if we can scale him or her up a little tiny bit to those
199
1023860
4469
17:08
stages, we are what the new sound of leadership is.
200
1028329
3080
17:11
Hadar: And I also think that public speaking in general is changing. It is becoming more
201
1031409
5470
17:16
conversational and a lot of ideas about what you should do with your body and how you should
202
1036879
4310
17:21
use your voice. All of that. It's like, no longer... yeah, oh my God!
203
1041189
5561
17:26
For those listening on the podcast, you should come over to YouTube to watch this, but was
204
1046750
4790
17:31
like... booing. Samara: Yeah, right? It's like... -It's so
205
1051540
3769
17:35
fake. I don't want to throw up all conventional
206
1055309
5600
17:40
wisdom. There is, you know, people talk about what to do with your hands, fine. I mean,
207
1060909
4681
17:45
as I'm doing it, you can't even see it but as I'm doing this, I'm doing like these massive
208
1065590
4730
17:50
hand gestures that are completely organic, you know, fine.
209
1070320
2420
17:52
You can do, you can, you can think, you can read some paragraph in some book about how
210
1072740
3649
17:56
the greatest Ted talkers, uh, have, have conducted their bodies and learn a little something.
211
1076389
5811
18:02
Sure. But I would argue that... I'm believing you deserve to be in the space and breathing
212
1082200
5309
18:07
like a person who truly breathes, not a person who holds their breath because they're bracing
213
1087509
3441
18:10
for something scary to happen... is going to solve so much of that. And then
214
1090950
6500
18:17
also the work ahead of time before you give up, before you give a talk, sorry, but for
215
1097450
4350
18:21
the work you do ahead of time before you are supposed to be up on that stage, thinking
216
1101800
3290
18:25
about, um, what matters to me in this, what matters to me in what I'm about to say and
217
1105090
5900
18:30
how do I say it like it matters to me. Hadar: Yeah, and then communicating it, like,
218
1110990
4960
18:35
you're really speaking to someone... Samara: Like you're talking to, like you're
219
1115950
2859
18:38
personal. I mean, I sort of joke, I say this all the time when I'm coaching clients and
220
1118809
3161
18:41
they all laugh because, you know, it's sort of a mean thing to say, but it's also like,
221
1121970
3839
18:45
there is, we do have we all, I'm going to just say we all, I'm going to say like, like
222
1125809
5250
18:51
I'm an authority on, on everybody. We all have this sense that to be a... uh,
223
1131059
5750
18:56
an expert or to be on a stage, is to be some certain way, to be like the people who we
224
1136809
4631
19:01
grew up hearing, to be like the best person we can think of, but certainly not be like
225
1141440
5609
19:07
ourselves. Oh God, no. Right? But when we breathe, when we do that dancing ahead of
226
1147049
4531
19:11
time, all of that is about saying, can we bring some of our real self up there?
227
1151580
4920
19:16
Can we be a person and not be a... Robotic monotone version of a person who's hiding.
228
1156500
8030
19:24
And I'm here to, the permission part is me saying, yeah, I am, I am not judging anybody
229
1164530
4720
19:29
for hiding vocally, physically. The ways that we, you know, cover our bodies and our voices,
230
1169250
5389
19:34
I'm not judging at all. I am saying it is so human and I so hear you.
231
1174639
4301
19:38
And we live in a, you know, depending on what culture you live in, you know, tell me if
232
1178940
5219
19:44
this feels right or not to you, but we live in a pretty, you know, patriarchal capitalist,
233
1184159
5880
19:50
white supremacist situation here. And, um, you know, we, we have heard that it doesn't,
234
1190039
7590
19:57
that that being a person, uh, would be, um, less welcome. And the answer is no, the answer
235
1197629
6530
20:04
is no. Hadar: Right. You know, when I, uh, when I
236
1204159
2791
20:06
just opened my YouTube channel, I was so ashamed of the fact that I'm a non native speaker
237
1206950
4011
20:10
teaching pronunciation. So I would hide that fact, like I...
238
1210961
3579
20:14
Samara: Oh my God! Hadar: I didn't mention it anywhere. No, go
239
1214540
3379
20:17
back and watch my first few videos, a robot speaking to the camera: Now we are going to
240
1217919
7140
20:25
talk about the schwa. Anyway, and I thought that's the formula for success, right? Like
241
1225059
8661
20:33
you need to speak, you need to sound authoritative. Samara: Of course. And also way to make, um,
242
1233720
4949
20:38
you know, one of your greatest strengths into a weakness in your own mind.
243
1238669
3401
20:42
Hadar: Right. And, uh, and. It only went like, it was only when I decided... also, I was,
244
1242070
7349
20:49
you know, doing some coaching and I was, I decided that, okay. I have, like, I was fed
245
1249419
6640
20:56
up with it. I was actually so bored with myself and I was unhappy with how it came out.
246
1256059
8000
21:04
And then like one day I just created this video telling my story. And from that moment
247
1264059
4521
21:08
on, actually there was this guy calling me, he's like a public speaking coach and we're
248
1268580
4520
21:13
having this conversation. And he was like, you know, I was watching
249
1273100
3289
21:16
all your videos. And at the beginning you sounded, like there was something there that
250
1276389
4061
21:20
shifted around video number... And he actually remembered what videos, he did his research.
251
1280450
6770
21:27
And it was exactly that point where I just, it's kind of, like I said, this is me. I make
252
1287220
5510
21:32
mistakes. And I was also, because I made mistakes. Right.
253
1292730
2329
21:35
I make grammar mistakes and my pronunciation is not perfect. And I mean, I have typos,
254
1295059
5911
21:40
and right, what is perfect? What is the proper pronunciation, anyway? Pronunciation not perfect,
255
1300970
4660
21:45
according to the YouTube Samara: I'm validating your experience and
256
1305630
2799
21:48
also saying, well, I don't like those words, but yeah, exactly right.
257
1308429
3601
21:52
Hadar: Right, right. The accent police, I call it. Where people, people kind of like,
258
1312030
5009
21:57
well, actually you're a, you know, you, you have not aspirated your P's in this video.
259
1317039
4260
22:01
I'm like, okay, whatever. Samara: And also, coming from acting, and
260
1321299
3230
22:04
then also having like a little bit of a like popular linguistics kind of, you know, sensibility,
261
1324529
4441
22:08
um, you know, so much of that is about, uh, you know, this idea of descriptivism versus
262
1328970
4250
22:13
prescriptivism, right? We're not saying you should do it this way.
263
1333220
2910
22:16
This is the right way. We're saying the opposite. How interesting, how curious, how do you speak?
264
1336130
4950
22:21
How cool that is, right? And, and obviously when we're learning, when, when I have to
265
1341080
5300
22:26
coach somebody in a specific accent for a specific job, I have to sort of narrow how
266
1346380
4350
22:30
much, uh, you know, just like absolute freedom we have into something that feels like it's
267
1350730
4480
22:35
telling the right story and not telling the wrong story. But even in then, you know, even
268
1355210
4690
22:39
in that, like when I've coached people to play real life figures, uh, They don't, no
269
1359900
8670
22:48
one gets an Oscar or an A for sounding the most like the person they get an Oscar or
270
1368570
6160
22:54
an A - Teacher Samara - um, for capturing the essence.
271
1374730
6689
23:01
And essence has nothing to do with what sound goes where, it has to do with who is this
272
1381419
4041
23:05
human being and what is their lived experience and how does their voice reflect their lived
273
1385460
3530
23:08
experience? Which is what I'm always interested in with clients, you know?
274
1388990
4330
23:13
Hadar: So, so how, how do you work? Maybe you can speak to that a little bit. Like how
275
1393320
4579
23:17
would you help someone capture the essence of a sound, an accent, a language, um, both
276
1397899
8140
23:26
when you work on specific dialects or foreign accents, but also when you work with your
277
1406039
4890
23:30
foreign students on sounding more intelligible, right? Like, what are the key factors that
278
1410929
6460
23:37
you focus on? Samara: Okay, it's a big, like, it ranges
279
1417389
5471
23:42
a lot, so... Hadar: Right, this is going to be kind of
280
1422860
4370
23:47
a two-hour answer. Samara: Yeah, let me give you the... but no,
281
1427230
3370
23:50
there is, there is a real, um, there's some simple stuff. There's some foundational stuff.
282
1430600
5970
23:56
One of them is, when I was in my twenties in New York, learning all this stuff and still
283
1436570
5199
24:01
thinking I was going to be a Shakespearian actress, but I just kept finding, I mean,
284
1441769
3461
24:05
this is really part of my story, I kept finding dialect mentors. Like I was not looking and
285
1445230
7389
24:12
they found me or I found them. And you know, the, the, the part of me that super geeks
286
1452619
3910
24:16
out about this, like you do, was clearly already, you know, bursting forth.
287
1456529
4071
24:20
And I was like, no, no, I'm an actress , thanks. But nonetheless, I kept finding, and one of
288
1460600
4640
24:25
them is this woman named Kate Wilson. She teaches at Julliard and, um, she taught me
289
1465240
5879
24:31
a physical gesture way of learning the pure vowels of American English. And when I, when
290
1471119
5560
24:36
I was a, I spent a summer at the public theater in Manhattan, so very... that's where Shakespeare
291
1476679
4511
24:41
in the park happens. Like I was, you know, I was touching greatness and it was...
292
1481190
4739
24:45
Hadar: How old were you there, 20? Samara: 23... about to start grad school?
293
1485929
5120
24:51
Between college and grad school. Hadar: We might've lived in New York at the
294
1491049
5681
24:56
same time. Samara: And just drank too much red wine.
295
1496730
3120
24:59
Hadar: I think I saw you. Oh, don't worry. Me too. Jameson, I think.
296
1499850
4829
25:04
Samara: Well, you were cooler than me, I was just like cheap red wine.
297
1504679
6731
25:11
I think that's what artsy people drink. Hadar: And it was going to every, yeah, like
298
1511410
6050
25:17
every Shakespearean play that was out there. I was there.
299
1517460
2689
25:20
Samara: Totally, all the things, all the things. Um, I volunteered everywhere. I was like,
300
1520149
4650
25:24
I, I made no money. I was a cocktail waitress. So then I just like spent all my days doing
301
1524799
4641
25:29
god-knows-what, um, but it was... Hadar: Where did you work? Now you have to
302
1529440
3929
25:33
tell me. Samara: Cafe Deville, And Asia de Cuba, which
303
1533369
3021
25:36
was a one of those... Hadar: Okay, I have to ask you something,
304
1536390
5539
25:41
later. We know someone. Okay. Crazy. Samara: I'm sure. I'm sure. Okay. But to answer
305
1541929
10210
25:52
your question, um, Kate Wilson taught this method that I don't think was hers necessarily,
306
1552139
6831
25:58
but she had evolved it into something and, and then I have since evolved it, um, and
307
1558970
6120
26:05
at her, at her suggestion, because when I'm... when I was in my late twenties and I got my
308
1565090
5209
26:10
first professorship at Pace university in Manhattan, uh, teaching, uh, the BFA kit,
309
1570299
4950
26:15
so the undergraduate theater kids, uh, for the stage, um, I called her and was like,
310
1575249
6420
26:21
could you remind me about some of that stuff? And she said, no, this is where you have to
311
1581669
3970
26:25
take it and make it your own, which was... talk about a teachable moment. It was, that
312
1585639
4931
26:30
was very valuable. So, but... all of which is to say there are physical gestures to keep
313
1590570
4890
26:35
track of all the vowel sounds. Here are a few that I can do while I'm in
314
1595460
2939
26:38
this square. A lot of them require like, like rubbing your tummy and stuff like that, that
315
1598399
3900
26:42
doesn't work so well over this. But, um, and this is, as you said, good, better to see
316
1602299
4610
26:46
on YouTube than over audio. But, so this is the short, I sound it as in sit, right. And
317
1606909
5711
26:52
this is as in B or C. So if you have I and E. Right, I will say
318
1612620
10669
27:03
E exists in every language. I does not, right? It is one of those bizarro American words,
319
1623289
5451
27:08
American sounds, English sounds, um, which does exist in a few other languages. I don't
320
1628740
4560
27:13
want to say like, we own that sound, but for SO many foreigners... And when I taught at
321
1633300
5199
27:18
Stella Adler acting school in Hollywood, it's an international school, I didn't realize
322
1638499
3260
27:21
that when I got the job, I thought it was sort of going to be like Pace. And I was really
323
1641759
3511
27:25
with my, like, you know, teach everybody standard American and then move on to doing Irish and
324
1645270
3979
27:29
you know, all these other things. And as of Day 1, I was like, Oh, everyday. I'm not a
325
1649249
2400
27:31
single American, which was really, I mean, I learned so much, I became a better coach
326
1651649
7071
27:38
for sure. And figured out my pattern, or pattern makes
327
1658720
4220
27:42
it sound like I'm like a charlatan, but you know, my pattern is in like the way I talk
328
1662940
3699
27:46
about this stuff that really lands with people with a lot of joy and a lot of speed, which
329
1666639
4261
27:50
is very much my M.O. Like I want it to really work and then like, let's move on and you
330
1670900
4489
27:55
could practice on your own. Um, I want people to feel autonomous as quickly
331
1675389
3490
27:58
as possible. That's very much like, you know, this is not about like here's our long system
332
1678879
4500
28:03
and you have to come to me for six years. It's like, let me give you, let me throw at
333
1683379
4270
28:07
you as much as I can. If you record it and take notes and whatever, sit with it, do your
334
1687649
3831
28:11
own thing. Come back to me when you audition for specific
335
1691480
2590
28:14
stuff, but like, I really want you to just practice it on your own and feel this out
336
1694070
4609
28:18
and watch videos and listen to people who are your type, but sound a little differently
337
1698679
4891
28:23
from you and sound that out of your mouth and feel what it feels like. And you know,
338
1703570
2959
28:26
this sort of like soft brain version of this, rather than sort of get your books into your
339
1706529
3681
28:30
brain version of this. So part of that is why those physical gestures
340
1710210
3469
28:33
really worked for me. So, you know, when I had that is sound and I had this Argentinian
341
1713679
3720
28:37
girl who very memorably said, you know, I just want help with like, how to say, how
342
1717399
5370
28:42
to say bitch and not like sound like I'm saying beach. Like, I don't want to go to the beach.
343
1722769
2660
28:45
I want to call her a bitch. But I'm like, you need the short I sound. And we can talk
344
1725429
6000
28:51
about how we make that in the mouth. But honestly, I was never framed that way.
345
1731429
4061
28:55
I didn't think about like, I, you know, I don't want to speak ill... but for me, oral
346
1735490
6509
29:01
posture is not a phrase that helps me. If you, if you're looking at a specific character
347
1741999
4790
29:06
to go to your question about somebody who's playing a specific person... absolutely! When
348
1746789
5090
29:11
you, when you watch that person, if something hits you like, Oh God, they feel really far
349
1751879
3770
29:15
back, or they feel really weirdly present, or God, this part of their... it's opening
350
1755649
4691
29:20
up. That, that kind of a hit, that's like image based, use that. But if it's like, everybody
351
1760340
7029
29:27
from this part of the world has this oral posture, I'm like...
352
1767369
3381
29:30
Hadar: No... Samara: But as an actor, especially, I'm like,
353
1770750
3390
29:34
I'm supposed to have an intention as this character and to also think about where the
354
1774140
7669
29:41
[mumbles]. So, I mean, I guess part of it is I start with those physical gestures to
355
1781809
6021
29:47
help people, um, just literally know what the pure vowel sounds are.
356
1787830
3530
29:51
Hadar: Give me some more, do you remember? Samara: Of course. I mean, I could do all
357
1791360
3149
29:54
of them if you want... but it's a little... Hadar: Please, just a few more.
358
1794509
5201
29:59
Samara: Okay. So, um, so this is A apple. It's like you have an Apple... I've actually
359
1799710
5630
30:05
recently been starting to teach it like this because I don't want people to feel like,
360
1805340
3570
30:08
oral posture wise, I don't want people to feel like it's a pushback sound, right? It
361
1808910
1541
30:10
should feel sort of like it's coming out of you, A. From obviously most of the world,
362
1810451
5428
30:15
this sound doesn't exist either and it's weirdly ugly. And I say that with no judgment.
363
1815879
4061
30:19
But I say that on purpose because so many people try to find a beautiful version of
364
1819940
4689
30:24
it. And if you try to find a beautiful version of A, you get to, you get one of the other
365
1824629
3770
30:28
English A sounds, which is, A as in father. Spanish and Hebrew, and a lot of languages
366
1828399
10171
30:38
have an in-between sound - A, which we don't have. So we have to figure out if we, if we're,
367
1838570
5810
30:44
if we're an American, we have to figure out if you have a name, like, for example, Gal
368
1844380
4070
30:48
GoDoe - that's my terrible American pronunciation of it on purpose.
369
1848450
4410
30:52
But you know, if you have a name like Gal, right? And, and the proper pronunciation is
370
1852860
4129
30:56
Gal, then like we have to think, we have to figure out, is it A as in Apple or A as in
371
1856989
5211
31:02
father? So we can go to 'gal', which is a word in English, so we do, we just naturally,
372
1862200
3150
31:05
we go to 'gal'. Or we can go to gaal, right? Which sounds...
373
1865350
6630
31:11
Sure. And then we do that also with like 'pasta', you know, this, the, the Romance language
374
1871980
5410
31:17
version of that would have a more forward sound - pasta. A. And instead we go to either,
375
1877390
4659
31:22
British goes to 'aa' - 'pasta', and American goes to 'ah' - 'pasta'. And this A sound is
376
1882049
6260
31:28
super relaxed. Like, I mean, it's also like giving your heart a little caress. So obviously,
377
1888309
3600
31:31
my clients love this. It's like you do this right before you go in for an audition.
378
1891909
4821
31:36
Hadar: This is one of the easier sounds for people to produce, at the same time, they
379
1896730
7371
31:44
don't use it as often as they should and could, you know, in English. Because a lot of times
380
1904101
5169
31:49
they kinda like, take the 'ah' sound, especially when it's spelled with O, and turn it into
381
1909270
6920
31:56
'oh'. Samara: I'm going to pop out just real fast
382
1916190
3900
32:00
for people who are watching. And this, is like a little string coming out of your solar
383
1920090
4209
32:04
plexus - A, A, A. This is a short O sound - A. So we have two O's, I say we have two
384
1924299
5502
32:09
O's in English. Unfortunately, neither of them is the one that every other language
385
1929801
4098
32:13
has, which is 'o'. We just do not round our lips like that ever, 'o'.
386
1933899
3350
32:17
So we have A, that one I was just doing - A, A, A. And then we have 'ow', which is the
387
1937249
6261
32:23
diphthong of 'uh'-'cup' into 'uw'. 'ow', 'ow'. 'Ow'. Right? But to go back to that first
388
1943510
9019
32:32
one - A, the non diphthong one - A, and that h-sound 'ah' - are identical. I was about
389
1952529
8181
32:40
to say fucking identical, but they are fucking identical. And, you know, we can argue with
390
1960710
6260
32:46
that in terms of length, but technically 'ah' is longer and A is shorter.
391
1966970
4490
32:51
But 50 years ago, they really had a difference Even 30 years, depending on what age person
392
1971460
6000
32:57
you're talking to, they still have a slight difference in that. The word 'not', not, not,
393
1977460
4319
33:01
we'll have a little up and down shape, not. Versus like, I dunno... I'm trying to think
394
1981779
7860
33:09
of an N one. 'Na... 'narwal'. Anyway, there you go. But 'ah', 'ah', versus A.
395
1989639
14750
33:24
But, especially contemporary, especially our age, and you know, a little younger, a little
396
2004389
6201
33:30
older, or all the way younger I should say, and a little older, we should absolutely feel
397
2010590
5699
33:36
comfortable making that exactly the same short O, long A - 'ah'.
398
2016289
5041
33:41
Hadar: And it's so much easier to merge sounds. And especially, when, you know, speaking a
399
2021330
5599
33:46
second language, and you have less vowels than the spoken language, it's so much easier
400
2026929
6061
33:52
to merge it and just do that. And then they go to the dictionary or they hear from someone
401
2032990
4429
33:57
that this is what they should do. And they're like, "Oh, well I'm confused". And this is
402
2037419
3830
34:01
where I like, language is something that is very fluid, and you just need to, you first
403
2041249
4831
34:06
need to sound clear. Let's start with that. And if you say...
404
2046080
4140
34:10
Samara: Sorry, I just got really excited. I'm sorry. I interrupted because I got...
405
2050220
4770
34:14
yes, yes, 100%. And one of the things that was my, I only had two rules in my class when
406
2054990
7280
34:22
I used to teach at Stella Adler, they're kind of two versions of the same rule. Neither
407
2062270
3750
34:26
of them had to do with putting yourself on the way. But they were, one: fuck spelling.
408
2066020
5770
34:31
Or if you wanted to put it a little bit more gently: spelling is irrelevant.
409
2071790
6770
34:38
Because when you're trying to come up with rules for "Oh, but this is 'oo', so it must
410
2078560
4800
34:43
be 'uw', I'm like, "I'm so sorry, on behalf of all English, I have tell you".
411
2083360
6050
34:49
Hadar: You should be. Samara: I am, I take full responsibility.
412
2089410
3560
34:52
I actually have this book , this thing that I recently re-read. I mean...
413
2092970
5560
34:58
Hadar: The mother tongue. Samara: He's an old white guy and he's deeply
414
2098530
1980
35:00
problematic, and it's from 1990. And I'm like, Oh my God, I was alive then. It feels really,
415
2100510
7040
35:07
really, really wrong. But it is full of a lot of academic wisdom and it's totally friendly.
416
2107550
8130
35:15
But it's called 'The mother tongue: english and how it got that way'. It is a reminder,
417
2115680
5120
35:20
it's a reminder for anybody who needs it on the permission front that like, as you say,
418
2120800
4970
35:25
it's constantly evolving. That Old English apparently used to be somewhat more like Spanish,
419
2125770
4570
35:30
where every sound actually maintain its integrity and have the spelling, and the out loud was
420
2130340
5650
35:35
exactly, you could tell the rules by looking at it, is what I'm trying to say. But not
421
2135990
4600
35:40
so much with contemporary English, for anybody who's following at home. So that was my first
422
2140590
3960
35:44
rule. But my other rule, which is why I bring it
423
2144550
1520
35:46
up is your honesty. Your honesty. So if we're trying to say, "but it should be", or, "but
424
2146070
6480
35:52
someone told us that this is what's right", listen to your ear and trust it. If you were
425
2152550
5340
35:57
hearing Americans make that 'ah' sound and that short A sound 'ah', sound exactly the
426
2157890
3360
36:01
same, trust yourself, trust your ear. Hadar: It's so, it's so good and so interesting
427
2161250
5970
36:07
because there is always this... I noticed that my students, for example, always doubt
428
2167220
5790
36:13
themselves of what would they hear and what comes out. Which is okay, because the brain
429
2173010
4360
36:17
does filter out a lot of information, especially if they're not used to sounds so they might
430
2177370
3920
36:21
like filter out the actual sound. And they hear it through the filter of the spelling.
431
2181290
5990
36:27
Right? A lot of times, especially when it comes to
432
2187280
3200
36:30
the schwa, and I once had an argument with a student where... argument, we were...
433
2190480
5260
36:35
Samara: Debate. Hadar: Debate. Yeah, exactly. And he was like,
434
2195740
4130
36:39
"Yeah, there is O, in computer". I was like, "No, it's a schwa". "No, no, no, I can hear,
435
2199870
5940
36:45
say it. And I said, "computer". "You said 'cOmputer'". Right? And like that little sound
436
2205810
5830
36:51
he heard... Yeah. And it's just like, had you not been born into, had you not studied
437
2211640
6790
36:58
spelling first thing as you started learning English? I mean, that wouldn't have been a
438
2218430
5890
37:04
problem, right. Samara: No, exactly. A five-year-old who's
439
2224320
2800
37:07
beginning to learn to write and to read, and like it's the opposite way, right? I mean,
440
2227120
5300
37:12
he knows the word "computer" and so he would never spell it with an O.
441
2232420
2940
37:15
Hadar: Right. Samara: And he has to be taught, you know,
442
2235360
2270
37:17
reverse engineer back to like, well, I know it doesn't sound that way, but...
443
2237630
4850
37:22
Hadar: How do you explain that, yeah. So what do you think, we talked about it just
444
2242480
7980
37:30
before we hit 'record' and I told you about my thoughts and how I deal with the phrase
445
2250460
6910
37:37
"speak like a native", and I would love to hear what you think about it. And also, what
446
2257370
3370
37:40
tips do you have for speakers of English as a second language who really struggle with,
447
2260740
8280
37:49
physically their voices. Like they don't come out.
448
2269020
3120
37:52
And I do think that it relates, right, because they feel that their voices are not the standard
449
2272140
5390
37:57
or what people expect or what is the norm. I was asking a question then I was answering
450
2277530
4530
38:02
it as asking. Samara: No, I love it. Also, you know, I'm
451
2282060
5300
38:07
new to podcasting. I, I have this podcast that's, we just dropped episode 12 today.
452
2287360
6460
38:13
Hadar: Which, by the way, you have to go and subscribe to the podcast. It's called 'Permission
453
2293820
4710
38:18
to Speak'. Really, I'm eagerly waiting every single week. Or maybe I should say I eagerly
454
2298530
7150
38:25
wait every single week for a new episode. So, it's so good.
455
2305680
3170
38:28
Samara: Both verb tenses would have worked just perfectly.
456
2308850
2680
38:31
Also, the point of communication is communication, and I understood the thought.
457
2311530
8260
38:39
Hadar: Exactly. Samara: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I
458
2319790
1000
38:40
mean, um... Hadar: We're going to link to it by the way.
459
2320790
4740
38:45
It's in the description and the show notes. Samara: That's very kind. Yeah. I mean, obviously,
460
2325530
3800
38:49
you know, part of what's, what I think we're both excited about in finding each other is
461
2329330
4290
38:53
that this conversation is just so, it doesn't happen very often anywhere, but it's really
462
2333620
5920
38:59
big, and overlapse with every aspect of our lives.
463
2339540
3060
39:02
I mean, how we use our voice is just not, it's just so much not about literally how
464
2342600
4860
39:07
we use our voice. It's just not about like what pitch we're talking at, although that
465
2347460
4520
39:11
also matters and it's interesting and has all kinds of gender and stuff and all of that.
466
2351980
3530
39:15
But, you know, it's about, it's about all the ways that we're showing up in the world
467
2355510
3540
39:19
and all the ways that we are, or are not embracing our individualism.
468
2359050
6740
39:25
And then you had some, you had like two parts to an amazing question that I wanted to answer.
469
2365790
3190
39:28
I don't remember them now. Hadar: I don't think I remember them either.
470
2368980
4780
39:33
Okay. The voice, the voice changes when speaking, because of, okay.
471
2373760
3120
39:36
Samara: So you were asking about the native, native, native,
472
2376880
3680
39:40
Hadar: Speak like a native. Yeah. Samara: Yeah.
473
2380560
1390
39:41
Hadar: How do you feel about that? Samara: Well, it's not a phrase that means
474
2381950
7290
39:49
much to me. I will say that. It makes me think, I'm going to share a tiny, um, metaphorical
475
2389240
11940
40:01
story that's not, that's very much not the same as what you're talking about, but is.
476
2401180
3440
40:04
But I have a friend who's in her mid twenties who is in Hollywood, was an assistant at a
477
2404620
6870
40:11
really massive, like, you know, movie development company. And wanted to leave, and start an
478
2411490
5450
40:16
activism organization for the assistant level, people in Hollywood too, who have no money
479
2416940
5130
40:22
and no time to figure out small ways that they can be of use to the world, and ultimately,
480
2422070
4940
40:27
also kind of unionized, like there isn't really a union for assistants and they're treated
481
2427010
3860
40:30
pretty terribly. So it wasn't gonna be an official union, but the whole idea of like,
482
2430870
4130
40:35
you know, of union, unionizing it's like, you know, we're stronger together than apart.
483
2435000
4910
40:39
And she had this idea, and we sat on this couch and she ran it by me. And I'm an advisor
484
2439910
3610
40:43
now on her, for her organization. And she said, "But I'm just so young. I don't know
485
2443520
8990
40:52
if anyone will take me seriously". And I underline this because she took leaping
486
2452510
9570
41:02
that is the strongest about her position, when she wants to do this. You know, the thing
487
2462080
4955
41:07
that makes her be able to hold a mirror up to everybody else in the town who is her generation
488
2467035
6885
41:13
and lead them, and thought of that as a weakness instead of a strength.
489
2473920
4860
41:18
And I just, I think back to that a lot, because I can feel when I do that to myself, and I
490
2478780
5080
41:23
think a lot of us do that to ourselves. And it is totally easy to say," if she were older
491
2483860
5990
41:29
and knew even more people, then she could have led better", but she would have been
492
2489850
4090
41:33
less connected to her people. And if you sounded 100% American people out there, you would
493
2493940
5540
41:39
do better. But no, I mean, the thing is we all bring
494
2499480
4780
41:44
our life experience to the table and we aren't actually, no one really wants the most boring
495
2504260
6000
41:50
person to have the most power. Except for the most boring person. And you know, obviously
496
2510260
6580
41:56
don't want to call anybody boring, but you know, the people who have the most conventionally
497
2516840
4830
42:01
empowering stories, the straight white men of the world who have never thought about
498
2521670
5010
42:06
how their voice sounds, because no one has ever questioned it.
499
2526680
3460
42:10
God bless them. I am not judging them, but I'm saying I'm not speaking to them. And to
500
2530140
6200
42:16
everybody else. And even my husband, he is totally straight white man. And I copped to
501
2536340
5620
42:21
that. But, you know, his own experience, the place he grew up, the way that he felt as
502
2541960
6260
42:28
a kid, but, you know, the different gradations of how we have felt kept out of power. We're
503
2548220
5951
42:34
allowed to sort of own all of that and then turn our problem into our solution, and not
504
2554171
4729
42:38
be, not sit on that couch and say, but my greatest strength is my greatest weakness.
505
2558900
5710
42:44
And so, you know, I also, I just feel like when my foreigners have broken - my foreigners,
506
2564610
7630
42:52
quote, unquote - my actors, my clients, have broken through, and really gotten those roles
507
2572240
7050
42:59
that really reflect their souls, they get to be in that position everyone wants to be
508
2579290
5570
43:04
in where they get to laugh at that time that they once thought that their background was
509
2584860
4370
43:09
, you know, a drawback instead of a benefit. Hadar: It's like when you, when you were validated
510
2589230
6540
43:15
by society, it's okay. Right? But until then, and usually people are not validated...
511
2595770
6250
43:22
Samara: Then we have to validate ourselves and ask our friends to validate us. And that
512
2602020
4390
43:26
is horrid and it feels, it feels, I mean, it feels quiet enough when we're just validating
513
2606410
5240
43:31
ourselves and our friends, it feels quiet enough that we still hear the voices that
514
2611650
3420
43:35
say, 'you're not good enough'. Hadar: Yeah. But if you don't do it, like
515
2615070
4270
43:39
you have to do it. Because you won't be validated by others If you don't validate yourself,
516
2619340
4070
43:43
cause you'll never show up. Samara: And then to make this really practical,
517
2623410
3530
43:46
how that ends up showing up in our voices is that we realize, okay, that little vocal
518
2626940
4380
43:51
warm up that I can do - and I don't mean a massive one, I'm not just not a big fan of
519
2631320
3770
43:55
like, 'you have to take two hours to warm up', you know. But that little five-minute
520
2635090
3850
43:58
one where you make sure that your jaw is relaxed and you make sure that your tongue, you know,
521
2638940
4380
44:03
which goes all the way down to here, like, you know, isn't holding all of the tension
522
2643320
4170
44:07
of your life and your, you know, trilling out your lips.
523
2647490
4460
44:11
You realize that the way that you can actually use your vocal apparatus for the athleticism
524
2651950
4730
44:16
that is speaking any language, but certainly English, is the way that new slightly pushing
525
2656680
8230
44:24
out new-found confidence can show up in your voice. You can actually say, "This is what
526
2664910
4420
44:29
showing up sounds like. I'm going to, in the phrase “this is what showing up sounds like”.
527
2669330
4370
44:33
I emphasize the word ‘up’. Okay. I don't know, it's not a rule. It was not the most
528
2673700
3800
44:37
idiomatic thing, but it felt right in the moment.
529
2677500
2350
44:39
And then instead of saying, this is what's showing up sounds like, which would be a really
530
2679850
3180
44:43
generic way of saying it. This is what showing up sounds like... I breathed and I punched
531
2683030
5520
44:48
the word ‘up’ like it mattered to me. This is what showing up sounds like.
532
2688550
5110
44:53
And you know, not every circumstance and not every Zoom meeting you ever do requires that
533
2693660
5270
44:58
level of athleticism. But what if you can practice that on your own? And the answer
534
2698930
4380
45:03
to your question about what to do on your own to improve that, to me, besides, you know,
535
2703310
5900
45:09
actually getting help on really specific sounds that your ear just needs to learn how to hear
536
2709210
3830
45:13
better, which, you know, is what somebody like you is really valuable for and somebody
537
2713040
4520
45:17
like me when I'm actually like doing it, which is right now, I'm just book writing and living
538
2717560
4550
45:22
in a pandemic. But if you can memorize, if you can make yourself,
539
2722110
4710
45:26
whether you're an actor or not, memorize a bit of text, hopefully something that you
540
2726820
3880
45:30
really like, maybe it’s even just like five sentences out of Glennon Doyle's Untamed,
541
2730700
5300
45:36
that speaks to you. Or something that feels contemporary and feels like it means something
542
2736000
6060
45:42
or has the potential to mean something to you and make like, by which, I mean, your
543
2742060
3600
45:45
body does something. And walk around her house saying it, and have
544
2745660
3850
45:49
it super memorized, so you're not thinking about the next line, not thinking about the
545
2749510
3580
45:53
next line, and just doing it. You know, I used to do this all the time and I did it
546
2753090
3330
45:56
with Shakespeare and I did it with contemporary stuff. Now it's like, you know, pick anything
547
2756420
4960
46:01
that matters, poetry, whatever. And the more that you do that on your own,
548
2761380
3830
46:05
in a room that feels safe, and maybe alone, the more you can figure out what is the version
549
2765210
6600
46:11
of me. She doesn't have to entirely be this person, but what is the version of me that
550
2771810
4460
46:16
isn't vocally hiding? What would she sound like and what does she do to my body? And
551
2776270
5240
46:21
just try, you know, see what happens. I mean, I wish I had like something I could pick up
552
2781510
2780
46:24
right now to sort of do an example, but I'm, I'm making enough sense.
553
2784290
2080
46:26
Hadar: I have to tell you. I love it. I love it. And it's, in the past, I think two years,
554
2786370
9190
46:35
I have an online program and I have a bunch of students and we’re in a Facebook group.
555
2795560
5020
46:40
And then I said like, I felt they needed something a little different, two years ago. And I introduced
556
2800580
5140
46:45
them to the power speech based on the power pose, where they had to memorize like a fierce
557
2805720
5660
46:51
monologue, right? One where the character is like shouting.
558
2811380
2340
46:53
And I told them, you have to memorize it. And they had to memorize it, and then do it
559
2813720
6790
47:00
full out. Because I wanted them to feel, to experience feeling powerful in English, without
560
2820510
8390
47:08
thinking about the words. Samara: Without the words, without having
561
2828900
3350
47:12
them, right. Memorization helps with that. Hadar: But like having this... Yes! Especially
562
2832250
3900
47:16
something that you relate to and that you enjoy, and what I've seen there...
563
2836150
3520
47:19
Samara: You have to turn off the part of you that that's like, what word is going to come
564
2839670
3400
47:23
next. And if you can take that off your plate, then you get to really just work on first,
565
2843070
4020
47:27
you know, in a contained space. What does it feel like to stand up for myself?
566
2847090
4490
47:31
Hadar: Right. And that insecurity of like, I don't know what to say next is, you really
567
2851580
5370
47:36
hear a difference in the voice. One of my students said, "I never thought my voice could
568
2856950
4840
47:41
sound that way. Like, I've never heard my voice that way". Cause she's like a very soft
569
2861790
4690
47:46
talker and you could barely hear her videos, and all of a sudden she was like full out
570
2866480
4990
47:51
and very powerful. So, I absolutely, you know, I think that this
571
2871470
6670
47:58
is such a great technique. And acting in general, I started doing, like, acting workshops for
572
2878140
6290
48:04
my students, for non-actors. But it's just, they enjoy it so much and they learn so much
573
2884430
5140
48:09
from it because when you set an intention, intonation is just like, or the melody or
574
2889570
5560
48:15
prosody or whatever, is just a result If you know what you're talking about and you are
575
2895130
4990
48:20
safe using the words. Samara: I like to say that there's like two
576
2900120
3000
48:23
ways to go into a line of text that's complicated. And this goes for acting, but also for just,
577
2903120
5760
48:28
you know, if you're public speaking, a line that Barack Obama says that’s long and complicated
578
2908880
3940
48:32
to know which word gets the emphasis, like I just said with ‘up’ in that earlier
579
2912820
4641
48:37
example, you know? But there's two ways to go into this. One of them is to actually think
580
2917461
2809
48:40
what is the operative word? And that takes a little bit of the hard brain instead of
581
2920270
3190
48:43
the soft brain. And it's a little bit of the operative word is the word that operates the
582
2923460
3500
48:46
thought, it's the word that gets the lift. And it's not necessarily the most interesting
583
2926960
4330
48:51
word in the thought. I like to give the example from when I worked with a Brazilian woman
584
2931290
3750
48:55
who had the line in the movie, in the movie she was working on, "I don't give a shit".
585
2935040
5290
49:00
And "shit" is the most fun word there, but "give" is actually where the emphasis goes,
586
2940330
5350
49:05
right? And if you actually say, "I don't give a SHIT", it sounds weirdly like you do give
587
2945680
4240
49:09
a shit, which is like really messing with the intention, you know? It's just, it's a
588
2949920
3690
49:13
bummer, it’s a bummer how idiomatic expressions work.
589
2953610
1950
49:15
But my point is that there is the sort of intellectual way of going about it, which
590
2955560
5660
49:21
I'm not against. It's just that it has a time and place, and it's not going to feel as embody.
591
2961220
3950
49:25
And then there's the emotional connection way. And I think of them not as competing,
592
2965170
5210
49:30
but as sort of checking your work. Hadar: The only challenging thing about that
593
2970380
4410
49:34
is that a lot of times they carry over some patterns, like rhythm and stress patterns
594
2974790
6400
49:41
from their native language... Samara: Well, that’s actually why I mean
595
2981190
3300
49:44
doing that work on operative words. It does not just mean like picking a word and lifting
596
2984490
4180
49:48
it. It means getting really conscious about if this thought is, "I was going to go to
597
2988670
4680
49:53
Chicago tomorrow, but now I'm going to go today". So 'tomorrow' versus 'today' are the
598
2993350
5280
49:58
two things that are being held in opposition and the fancy, you know, Shakespeare word
599
2998630
4230
50:02
is 'antithesis'. Hadar: Antithesis.
600
3002860
1750
50:04
Samara: By the way, a Greek word, because we're… Can we go to Greece together?
601
3004610
8030
50:12
Hadar: In August, just put in your calendar. Samara: Done! Anyway, antithesis, two ideas
602
3012640
10410
50:23
being held in opposition within a single thought, right? So I thought I was going to do it tomorrow,
603
3023050
4270
50:27
but instead I'm doing it today. There are rules. And we follow those rules when we're
604
3027320
4410
50:31
native American English speakers, we follow those rules. And even native speakers break
605
3031730
6910
50:38
those rules when they're suddenly public speaking. They don’t know which word gets lifted if
606
3038640
6050
50:44
they wrote it ahead of time. And now they're out here, they're thinking about the audience
607
3044690
4580
50:49
and thinking about how they look, and they're not connecting to the thought.
608
3049270
3380
50:52
And this is what I mean about these two things being, being ways to check your work. If ahead
609
3052650
5170
50:57
of time you have underlined the word ‘tomorrow’ to make sure that today and tomorrow get,
610
3057820
5210
51:03
you know, get their nice little, get a little, little pitch punch, you know? Right? "I thought
611
3063030
5630
51:08
I was going to do it today… tomorrow". I usually call it a lift cause a punch feels
612
3068660
4570
51:13
a little aggressive, but you know, there is, there is an aspect of it.
613
3073230
3000
51:16
You know, you can underline it or put it into Alex in your, in your written thing to remind
614
3076230
5210
51:21
yourself. Or you can dare yourself to think in the middle of your thought, even in front
615
3081440
5750
51:27
of an audience, and to really think, and if you really think. "I was going to do this
616
3087190
6270
51:33
today, but I decided I needed to do it tomorrow": it will also lift, it will also do the punch.
617
3093460
6910
51:40
So that's what I mean. It's not, you're right, and actually the way to undo the rhythms that
618
3100370
5560
51:45
happen either because we're disconnected or because they were bringing in stuff from our
619
3105930
3190
51:49
own language that doesn't work. The way to undo that is to think about these operative
620
3109120
3630
51:52
words more than anything. Hadar: And that, that idea of like, it's okay
621
3112750
4350
51:57
to... pause for a second and think about what you want to say and not go on autopilot and
622
3117100
5850
52:02
survival mode where you just have to speak, so people don't think that you...
623
3122950
4040
52:06
Samara: And it’s the hardest thing to aid a pause. And really not an empty pause, right?
624
3126990
8110
52:15
But to pause, to actually breathe, to actually think like, what do I want to connect? What
625
3135100
5170
52:20
impulses are like coming at me from what I'm taking in about the room I'm in and how will
626
3140270
5480
52:25
I, how like, trust and allow that to change me. You know, a lot of this work is about
627
3145750
4110
52:29
surprising ourselves. If we never surprise ourselves, we're actually kind of not being
628
3149860
3880
52:33
people up there. So part of it is that, you know, for sure, you're just like...
629
3153740
8280
52:42
Hadar: Can I hug you? Okay. Listen, I have one last question about the voice, which I
630
3162020
6120
52:48
think my, you know, the viewers/listeners are going to love hear us talk about it, because
631
3168140
7360
52:55
it's not discussed enough. First of all, so it's a little complex, but,
632
3175500
6910
53:02
a lot of people experience that when they move into English, their voice changes. And
633
3182410
7010
53:09
it's everything that we discussed about the permission and about being too shy and not
634
3189420
5070
53:14
feeling that they should be heard. But also, there is, do you... like, what do you say
635
3194490
8930
53:23
about different voices for different languages, or different cultures, right? Like sometimes
636
3203420
2330
53:25
there is like the quiet voice that is just a result of a culture or norms, cultural norms.
637
3205750
9650
53:35
Or a preconceived notion of how an American voice should sound, and then the voice is
638
3215400
6110
53:41
manipulated to sound more American, but it's then not authentic, and people don't feel
639
3221510
4410
53:45
like themselves anymore. Samara: I mean, you, you hit on sort of contradictions
640
3225920
4690
53:50
in there, for sure. Here's what I know. Some of what we do to manipulate our voice hurts
641
3230610
6500
53:57
ourselves, either on an anatomical level or in terms of our sense of power. And we're
642
3237110
6200
54:03
doing it because we think we have to be a certain way that we've heard other people
643
3243310
4710
54:08
be. Often that means, and this is not even necessarily language related, it's just sort
644
3248020
5910
54:13
of public persona related, but, um, often that means that, men, especially go down a
645
3253930
6560
54:20
little bit in pitch and do what I lovingly call the superhero voice. Right? So like you
646
3260490
3470
54:23
talk like this, and everything comes across like it's really important. And I sound like
647
3263960
3390
54:27
Batman. You know, but that's a way of not using pitch
648
3267350
5190
54:32
at all anymore, because as soon as we're sort of just living in our throats. We can't have
649
3272540
7550
54:40
any pitch, and pitch, I'm a big, big proponent of this - pitch equals vulnerability. When
650
3280090
6940
54:47
we don't share our pitch, when we go monotone - which again, not judging, we do it when
651
3287030
5400
54:52
we're feeling scared - it is a way of hiding. It is a way of saying "I don't care that much.
652
3292430
3940
54:56
Don't worry. I'm cool". Hadar: Yeah.
653
3296370
1810
54:58
Samara: If we show more range, if we go up and down, what we're saying is I care. That
654
3298180
5850
55:04
is the root of our greatest power and it is also the root of our greatest vulnerability.
655
3304030
3940
55:07
And people will be able to see us and hear us, and then they will have opinions about
656
3307970
4500
55:12
us. Hadar: This is so big. And when, especially
657
3312470
4000
55:16
with my, with students and followers, they say, "oh, like that thing, I sound monotone.
658
3316470
4730
55:21
I, like I don't have any variation, I don't sound interesting..." And I heard you speak
659
3321200
5890
55:27
about that, on the podcast about vulnerability. And I was like, yes, that's what it is. Not
660
3327090
4960
55:32
just patterns from the first language, it’s really about, 'I just want to be okay, not
661
3332050
6570
55:38
to make too many mistakes, so people don't notice'.
662
3338620
4380
55:43
Or sometimes like, 'I'm going to sound American and people are going to think, who does she
663
3343000
2640
55:45
think she is?' Or who does he think he is, like using his American accent.
664
3345640
4830
55:50
Samara: Well, and we can talk and I'd love to actually hear feedback from people afterwards
665
3350470
4720
55:55
on your own experiences with this, because I think that so much of what we're talking
666
3355190
5780
56:00
about on a really practical level, of what's going on in our heads, is the fear of the
667
3360970
4680
56:05
feedback we're going to get. And I'd love to hear from people that with the feedback
668
3365650
3150
56:08
is that they have gotten that's really stuck with them.
669
3368800
2400
56:11
And also with the percentage of how much has been negative versus positive, because you
670
3371200
4080
56:15
know, us humans, we can focus on that one negative comment and ignore the 50 positive
671
3375280
5730
56:21
ones. And I think part of the solution, if we really are trying to literally change our
672
3381010
5060
56:26
culture, in terms of who we, whose voices we hear, not just we talk, but we hear as
673
3386070
5720
56:31
powerful is about changing the way we think about those trolls. Cause they're out there,
674
3391790
6660
56:38
but they should not be defining all of our lives.
675
3398450
2830
56:41
And especially if they're just a few really, you know, people who are on their own goddamn
676
3401280
5640
56:46
journey, they can be them, but they don't get to take over all of ours and they have
677
3406920
7690
56:54
for way too way too long. And I think it's an image of the people who are going to mock
678
3414610
5520
57:00
us more than it's real. I'm interested in what that is. And I think the only real solution
679
3420130
4670
57:04
is in all of us sharing our stories so that we can realize how much we're collectively
680
3424800
3970
57:08
stronger than them. Hadar: Right. And so, I do encourage you,
681
3428770
4770
57:13
if you're listening or watching, to comment right below the video or on the podcast page,
682
3433540
5180
57:18
and just share it with us. And you know what, I think that that troll
683
3438720
4740
57:23
is like our inner critic, for the most part, because a lot of times I ask them, like, do
684
3443460
5820
57:29
you know this to be true? Has someone told you that judgment? They're like, "no, I just,
685
3449280
6860
57:36
I just know that they feel that way". Samara: Right, right. Well, yes, and I also
686
3456140
3750
57:39
really want to validate the people who have had, you know, for all of us. I mean, you
687
3459890
4050
57:43
know, it's not, it's not one or the other, you're absolutely right. Almost all of us
688
3463940
4480
57:48
had had some comment at some point in our lives often when we were way young, that really
689
3468420
6810
57:55
stayed with us, whether it's front of mind or way dormant at this point, just like asleep
690
3475230
4660
57:59
in the back of our mind, but like affecting our actions. And you know, that person, people
691
3479890
6281
58:06
like, you know, I just really don't want them to, to affect our story anymore.
692
3486171
8489
58:14
Hadar: Samara, so much insight, so many good things. I feel like I need to bring you to
693
3494660
8441
58:23
a sequel here. Samara: Yeah. Really, let's do a second part.
694
3503101
4039
58:27
Cause I feel like also there was a bunch of, we should, we're going to do our homework
695
3507140
4120
58:31
and listen back for the questions that you asked and then we got sidetracked and we didn't
696
3511260
4160
58:35
actually answer because all of your questions were super right on. And there was one about
697
3515420
4110
58:39
pitch in there, for example, that we were just about to talk about.
698
3519530
3350
58:42
And this stuff is, you know, this is why I pitched a podcast with, you know, ongoing
699
3522880
5530
58:48
episodes, not just like a 10, 10 episode thing, you know? And I said yes. Because this is
700
3528410
6220
58:54
hard for people to think about how big this topic is. But once we get into it, we realize
701
3534630
6760
59:01
everything is connected to it. Everything is connected to it.
702
3541390
3110
59:04
Hadar: Yeah. And the voice is like the most intimate thing that we have, it's before everything,
703
3544500
5050
59:09
right? Before the sounds that we make. It's maybe the thoughts are first, but the voice
704
3549550
4211
59:13
is, it's so immediate and people hear it first. So this is how you present yourself, how you
705
3553761
7019
59:20
carry yourself in the world. Samara: I would frame it also a little bit
706
3560780
2880
59:23
different, which is that it's more obvious than how we look, is how we will be judged.
707
3563660
5550
59:29
Or if you don't want me to say judged, you know, it will affect how we're treated. And
708
3569210
7310
59:36
we often, you know, not your listeners, and this is why it's like so stunning to be in
709
3576520
4540
59:41
this community, but for the public at large, we often forget that the voice is even something
710
3581060
4000
59:45
we have any, a) control over, and b) like critical mind to even think about.
711
3585060
7770
59:52
And yet, you know, when things happen, like, you know, five women run for president in
712
3592830
3870
59:56
America and none of them make it to the final round, it does start to come out in these
713
3596700
3650
60:00
think-pieces all over the place. But they're sort of like everybody thinks they're having
714
3600350
3140
60:03
their own thought, and is it about feminism, sorry, is it about sexism or isn't it?
715
3603490
6250
60:09
And so what my dream with the podcast, and what I think you're doing over here as well,
716
3609740
4690
60:14
is creating a space to say, like, this is actually all different parts of the same story.
717
3614430
5890
60:20
And how we think about our voice does matter. And it's not just this like invisible thing
718
3620320
3880
60:24
that we can't talk about because we don't have the words. You and I are finding the
719
3624200
3560
60:27
words. And we're finding them imperfectly because that's how communication works, but
720
3627760
4240
60:32
we're going for something. And I'm proud of us.
721
3632000
5650
60:37
Hadar: Samara, where can people find you? Because I'm sure everyone would want to.
722
3637650
7120
60:44
Samara: My dream is that you listen to the podcast, which you can find on any podcast
723
3644770
3410
60:48
app. I mean, it's an iHeartRadio podcast, but it's also on Apple and Spotify.
724
3648180
3880
60:52
Hadar: So it’s 'Permission to Speak'. They just have to type in 'Permission to Speak',
725
3652060
3950
60:56
I highly recommend it. Samara: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And
726
3656010
3310
60:59
then the other thing is I'm really building up my Instagram community because I want as
727
3659320
5980
61:05
many people, you know, commenting and DMing as possible so that the podcast can truly
728
3665300
4130
61:09
be for you. Hadar: So go over there and tell Samara what
729
3669430
5500
61:14
you thought about this interview and about the questions that she asked you. So go over
730
3674930
4160
61:19
there. She'll respond to you to the DMs or comments. And, that's a privilege when, you
731
3679090
8390
61:27
know, when we can do that, Samara: It's a dream truly. It's a dream.
732
3687480
4850
61:32
I mean, we're, you know, you and I are the ones who are on this screen and who've been
733
3692330
3700
61:36
thinking about this for the last 10 plus years, but every single person here shares the story
734
3696030
5860
61:41
with us, which is that we're really just trying to change the way that culture thinks about
735
3701890
3790
61:45
our voices. Hadar: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
736
3705680
2640
61:48
Samara, thank you so much for this beautiful hour. I had so much... I've learned from you.
737
3708320
6670
61:54
Samara: I mean, needless to say, I fully geek out about this stuff, but it's because you
738
3714990
4980
61:59
know, my heart is really in it and, I can tell yours is too, and I love that. Thank
739
3719970
2910
62:02
you. Hadar: Thank you so much.
740
3722880
2880
About this website

This site will introduce you to YouTube videos that are useful for learning English. You will see English lessons taught by top-notch teachers from around the world. Double-click on the English subtitles displayed on each video page to play the video from there. The subtitles scroll in sync with the video playback. If you have any comments or requests, please contact us using this contact form.

https://forms.gle/WvT1wiN1qDtmnspy7