What Makes Us Human in the Age of AI? A Psychologist and a Technologist Answer | TED Intersections

Brian S. Lowery: If you could produce a more immersive social experience,

翻译人员: Eric Ma 校对人员: Manlin Fang

Brian：如果你能创造出 更身临其境的社交验,

now everybody's having their individual social experiences.

那么，现在每个人都有 自己的社交体验。

Like now what I worry about with AI, with VR,

就像我现在 担心的人工智能、虚拟现实、

with all these kind of technologies that are expanding,

所有这些正在扩展的技术一样，

we all inhabit our own singular world.

我们都生活在我们自己的单一世界中。

That is more frightening to me than like, you know,

对我来说，这比我们都经历了同样 的事情更可怕，你懂的。

that we all converged in the same experience.

[Intersections]

[十字路口] （由TED提供）

[Brian S. Lowery: Social psychologist]

[Brian S. Lowery：社会心理学家]

[Kylan Gibbs: Technologist]

[Kylan Gibbs：技术专家]

BSL: So what makes a human a human?

BSL：那么是什么让人类成为人呢？

(Laughter)

（笑声）

Kylan Gibbs: It’s one of those questions, isn’t it?

这是其中一个问题， 不是吗？

I mean, there's like, two ways I would look at it.

我的意思是，我大概有 两种看法。

One is from my personal life and one is from my work life.

一种来自我的个人生活， 另一种来自我的工作。

One thing that's interesting is like,

一件有趣的事是，

there's been points when I've been spending

有时候我每天花

four to five hours a day interacting with AI.

四到五个小时与人工智能互动。

And the interesting thing that happens in that is the things that you notice,

其中，有趣的事情是当你第一次 开始与它互动时，

when you first start interacting with it, oh, this is really realistic.

你注意到， 哦，这真的很现实。

Similarly when people first had black and white TV and they're like,

同样，当人们第一次拥有 黑白电视时，他们会想，

wow, this is like real life.

哇，这就像现实生活一样。

But then as you get used to it, you start to kind of realize,

但是当你习惯了之后， 你就会开始意识到

the things that make it less authentic.

那些让它变得不那么真实的东西。

And I think something that I realized with AI is

而且我认为，通过人工智能，

there's certain ways that we interact that are just more spontaneous.

我意识到我们的某些互动 方式更加自发。

There's something about the predictability of AI that teaches you

人工智能的可预测性可以教会你

about the spontaneity of being human.

人类的自发性。

The ways they communicate, the naturalness, the contextual awareness.

他们的沟通方式、 自然性、情境意识。

These little things that all add up.

这些小东西加起来了。

That's on the technical side.

那是在技术方面。

On the other side,

另一方面，

there's something of just the shared experience of being human

我认为人类的共同 经历实际上

that actually I think differentiates it from other animals’ experience.

使它与其他动物 的经历有所不同。

You know, you have a traumatic moment in your life,

你的生活中 有一个痛苦的时刻，

and then you start to resonate with other people's.

然后你开始引起他人的共鸣。

I feel like every time I've had something nearly catastrophic,

我觉得每当我遇到 近乎灾难性事情时，

it opened up a new door of empathy, and then you start to be like,

它都会打开一扇新的同理心之门， 然后你会开始觉得，

oh man, that really hurt, you know?

天啊，真的很痛苦，你知道吗？

Or like when you cry about something, you're like, wow.

或者就像当你为某件 事哭的时候，你会想，哇。

And then you start to remember, like this is what usually happens to me.

然后你开始记住， 就像我经常发生的事情一样。

I start crying about something,

我开始为某件事哭泣，

and then I think about all the things that I did for my mom or my grandma

然后我想起我为妈妈 或奶奶所做的一切

and the things that they felt.

以及他们的感受。

And I feel like there's something in that kind of like shared experience

而且我觉得， 在那种共同的体验中

where we have these things that differentiate us,

有一些东西 可以使我们与众不同，

we’re all different people.

我们都是不同的人。

But there’s something about those common feelings

但是，这些共同的感受

that it all kind of arises from that.

在某种程度上是由此产生的。

Anyway, that's one thought.

无论如何，这是一个想法。

BSL: I love that answer, and I want to say that you're not normal in that way.

BSL：我喜欢这个答案，我想 说你这样不正常。

Here's why I don't think you're normal.

这就是为什么我认为你不正常：

People anthropomorphize anything.

人们将任何事物拟人化。

It doesn't have to even be that good, right?

甚至不必那么好， 对吧？

It doesn't have to be anywhere near as good AI

人们不必像对待人 一样对待它好，

for people to treat it like it has some human character,

不一定要把它当成 一个真人一样对待

people treat their cars like they're people.

人们想对待一个人 一样对待他们的车

So I'm surprised that when you interact with it a lot,

因此，令我惊讶的是 当你经常与它互动时，

it feels less real to you.

对你来说感觉不那么真实。

KG: There's something about resolution.

KG：分辨率有些问题。

It's like the way of seeing the world and you kind of increase this.

这就像看待世界的方式， 你在某种程度上增加了这个水平。

It's like the same reason you can't look at TV that's not 4K now.

这就像 你现在不能看不是 4K 的电视的原因一样。

And it's someone I think who worked on early VR was saying, you know,

我想是开发早期虚拟 现实的人在说，对吧，

the interesting thing about it was when you stepped out of it,

它的有趣之处在于， 当你走出虚拟现实时，

you're like, oh, the real world is actually amazing.

你会想，哦，现实世界 真的很神奇。

And it's actually really hard to recreate that in technology.

实际上，要在技术中 重现这一点真的很困难。

And I think the same is true for AI, it's like maybe for some people,

而且我认为人工智能也是如此， 就像某些人一样，

when they interact with it,

当他们与人工智能互动时，

the thing that they see is some commonality.

他们看到 的是某种共同点。

But the thing that I always notice is,

但我经常注意到的是，

this is very different from the conversations I have with my parents.

这与我和父母 的对话有很大的不同。

Even when it says something similar, there’s something off.

即使它说了类似的话， 也有一些不对劲。

It's those little things,

正是这些小东西，

that's like I think what, over time, will add up

就像我认为， 随着时间的推移，

as people use AI more, is they’ll start to recognize,

随着人们越来越多地使用人工智能， 他们会开始识别，

and I can't even point at them like, what are those nuances, though,

我甚至无法指着它们，但是，

that make us human?

那些使我们成为人类的细微差别 是什么？

BSL: You just know it when you see it and you're like,

BSL： 当你看到它时你就会知道，

and it's missing an AI.

而且它缺少人工智能。

I mean that's also interesting

我的意思是这也很有趣，

because what you just suggested is that the more people use AI,

因为你刚才想说的是， 使用人工智能的人越多，

the less real it's going to feel to people.

人们的感觉 就越不真实。

Do you think that's what's going to happen?

你认为会发生这样 的事情吗？

KG: I mean, there's probably another case, you know,

KG：我的意思是，可能还有 另一种情况，你知道，

it's the same way as, you know,

就像你的Instagram

your Instagram and Facebook feed isn't a real conversation.

和Facebook推送一样 不是真正的对话。

There are certainly, kids especially, who would look at those kinds of feeds

当然，尤其是孩子们， 他们会看着这样的社交媒体

and feel like, oh, that's a real representation of my friends

然后觉得，哦，那是我朋友们 的真实写照

or my favorite celebrities or whatever I actually think,

或者是我最喜欢的名人 或者我真正想到的任何东西，

when it's like completely -- I shouldn't say completely --

而这完全是错误的- 我不应该完全说

largely false.

在很大程度上是错误的。

And I do think something similar will happen with AI,

而且我确实认为人工智能 也会发生类似

where some people for sure will almost be encaptured.

的情况，有些人肯定 会几乎被抓住。

And they will believe

他们会相信

that that's the most realistic thing that exists

这是现存的最 现实的东西，

and then start to compare people to that.

然后开始将人与之进行比较。

But I think that, you know, if you have that degree of empathy,

但我认为，你知道， 如果你有这种程度的同理心，

you'll be like, oh, there's something off here.

你会想，哦，这里 有一些东西。

It's the same way even if you use a Zoom call, there's something off.

即使你使用 Zoom通话， 也是如此，也会有一些问题。

It's hard to pick it up.

很难把它捡起来。

But like, I’m not picking up all the signals,

但是，比如，我不会接收 所有的信号

and it's the very little nuances

，你可能也会 巧妙地听到

that you probably just subtly pick up as well.

这些细微的细微差别。

BSL: So you don't think that the technology

BSL：那么你 认为这项技术的发展速度还不

is going to advance quickly enough,

够快，它能以足够快的速度

where it’ll overcome those little things fast enough to capture all of us?

克服这些足以俘获我们 所有人的小问题吗？

You're not worried about that?

你不担心吗？

KG: I am definitely worried about that.

KG：我对此肯定很担心。

Mainly because because I think for most people it's easy, right?

主要是因为我认为 对大多数人来说这很容易，对吧？

So the thing about AI is it's so beholden,

因此，人工智能的问题在于 它非常受其束缚，

at least if you think about like, the chatbot styles,

至少如果你 想象聊天机器人的风格，

it's so beholden to what we want.

它是如此受我们想要的东西的束缚。

And that's kind of like what people, I think,

我认为，

a lot of people want in their life or they need,

这有点 像人们 在生活中想要或需要

is the sense of control.

的是控制感。

And the AI gives you the sense that, like,

人工智能给你一种感觉，比如，

I can control this anthropomorphic thing.

我可以控制这个拟人化的东西。

And honestly, one of my fears is that people get used to that.

老实说，我的恐惧之一 是人们会习惯这种情况。

And what does it mean when I get used to interacting with something

当 我习惯于与只受 我的观点和兴趣约束

that is beholden to only my views and interests,

的事物互动，然后去

and then I go and interact with a human who has their own interests?

和一个有自己兴趣 的人互动时，这意味着什么？

BSL: Do you think people want control?

BSL：你认为人们想要控制权吗？

I think people want to be controlled.

我认为人们想要被控制。

KG: Maybe it's a form of control, though.

KG：不过，也许这是一种控制形式。

To be controlled is a predictability, I guess.

我猜被控制 是一种可预测性。

BSL: Yeah, people want the world to make sense, don't you think?

BSL：是的，人们 希望世界变得有意义，你不觉得吗？

KG: Yes, yes, I think they also want the world to be ...

KG：是的，是的，我想他们也 希望世界成为...

There's something about, like, preferring predictability over optimality.

比如说， 更倾向于可预测性而不是最优性。

So, like, I've even felt it when you have, you know,

所以，比如， 当你有心理健康的时刻时，我甚至

a mental health moment,

有过这样的感觉，

you have friends who have mental health moments.

你的朋友有 心理健康的时刻。

The things that I've always seen as interesting

我一直认为有趣的事情

is your brain and your mind prefer to stay in a state that's familiar,

是你的大脑和大脑 宁愿保持一种熟悉的状态，

even if it's worse.

即使情况更糟。

So if you're in like a depressed state,

因此，如果你处于抑郁状态，

you almost would rather like stick in that than break outside of it, right?

你几乎宁愿坚持下去， 也不愿逃脱困境，对吧？

So there's something about things that are familiar

因此，有些 东西是熟悉的，

rather than actually better.

而不是更好的。

And I don't know, there's a bias towards, you know,

而且我不知道，你知道， 那时人们会有偏见

you almost identifying then with those kinds of states.

你几乎认同这几种状态。

BSL: Yeah, there's research on this.

BSL：是的，有关于这个的研究。

One, it's called the status quo bias.

第一，它被称为现状偏差。

People like things that are already there.

人们喜欢已经存在的东西。

And two, people like to have what they believe about themselves affirmed

第二，如果人们真的相信他们，

if they really believe them, even if they're not positive.

即使他们不是积极的，他们也喜欢 让他们对自己的看法得到肯定。

So that is true.

所以这是真的。

So, like, what does that look like in AI?

那么，比如，在人工智能 中会是什么样子？

(Laughter)

（笑声）

KG: I mean, it's definitely interesting to me that people seem to love like,

KG：我的意思是，对我来说， 很有意思的是，人们看起来很喜欢，

you talk to a lot of these things and they sound like computers

你说很多这样的东西， 它们听起来像计算机，

and they sound like AI, but people love it

听起来像人工智能， 但人们喜欢它，

because it's kind of familiar, it's controllable.

因为它有点 熟悉，是可以控制的。

If you start to add lots of personalities and these kinds of things,

如果你开始添加很多个性 之类的东西，

it makes sense in context, but I found it interesting

这在情境中是有道理的， 但我发现有趣的是，

that as we started developing these AI systems

当我们开始开发这些 可供人们互动的人工智能系统时，

that people interact with,

they all have this kind of similar voice.

它们都有类似的声音。

And it's a very "AI voice."

而且这是一种非常 “人工智能的声音”。

You can kind of tell that you're talking to an AI.

你可以分辨出你 在和人工智能说话。

Maybe that’s intentional.

也许这是故意的。

But there is something there, where like, I think people have a preference

但也有一些东西，比如， 我认为人们更

to getting what they want from humans, from humans,

愿意从人类到人类、

and from AI, from AI.

从人工智能到人工智能 那里得到他们想要的东西。

But that could blend,

但这可能会混为一谈，

there's already lots of, you know,

你知道，在某些

people in certain demographics who spend a lot of time on the internet

人群中，已经有很多 人花了很多时间在互联网上，

and they start to identify,

他们开始意识到，

that's their favorite form of interacting with people.

这是他们最喜欢的与人互动 的方式。

And so I do think that there's a reality where,

因此，我确实 认为，

as we move into the future,

在我们迈向未来的过程中，

there will be people who bias towards that for whatever reasons.

出于各种原因， 会有一些人倾向于那样做。

Whether it's the comfort of knowing that someone's not judging them,

不管是 知道别人没有评判他们的安慰，

whether it's like the format that it speaks to you with,

还是像它对你说话的格式，

that will kind of bias towards preferring those types of interactions.

这都会偏向于偏向 于偏爱这些类型的互动。

But on the other hand, I always think

但另一方面，我一直认为会

there’ll be a distribution of people,

有人分布，

and you'll have some people who really don't like it.

而且会有一些 人真的不喜欢。

And, you know, like I was saying,

而且，你知道，就像我说的那样，

the more that I interact with it now, I find it almost painful

我现在与它的互动越多， 我就会觉得几乎很痛苦，

because I just pick up on so many of these issues

因为我刚刚发现了很多这样的问题

that you're like, I can't even use it at a certain point.

你就是这样，我甚至无法 在某个时候使用它。

And, you know, you'd think that, like, you know,

而且，你会 这么想，比如，你知道，

I’m in the AI space, and I write 20-page docs.

我在人工智能领域， 我写的是20页的文档。

I don't need AI for a single bit of it

我一点也不需要人工智能，

because it does remove that voice.

因为它确实会移除那个声音。

And I do also wonder, though,

我也想知道，

as people interact with it more,

随着人们与人工智能互动的增多，他们

will they either identify the differences

会识别出差异

or start to conform to the things that they're trained with AI.

还是开始遵循他们 用人工智能训练的内容。

It's the same as if you interact with your partner for example, right?

例如，就像你 与伴侣互动一样，对吧？

You start to be biased by the communication

你开始对沟通产生偏见 ，

because you're talking so much.

因为你说话太多了。

BSL: You mean they're training you?

BSL：你的意思是他们在训练你？

KG: They're training you.

KG：他们在训练你。

Your partner is probably like, you know,

你的伴侣可能，对吧，

they have a preferred way of communicating.

有一种首选 的沟通方式。

You get used to it, these kinds of things.

你已经习惯了，诸如此类的事情。

So I do wonder if, as people interact with AI more,

因此，我确实想知道，随着人们 越来越多地与人工智能互动

that they'll kind of all converge.

他们是否会融为一体。

That's probably one of my biggest fears actually of AI.

实际上，这可能是我 对人工智能最大的恐惧之一。

BSL: I'm concerned about the exact opposite.

BSL：我担心的情况恰恰相反。

I'm going to shift a little bit.

我要稍微换一下话题

So when we talk about AI, what you're describing,

因此，当我们谈论人工智能时， 你所描述的，通常

it's usually like dyadic interactions.

就像二元交互。

Like, I'm interacting with one AI, one agent.

比如，我正在与一个人工智能、 一个代理进行互动。

But really what people do is interact with multiple people, right?

但实际上，人们要做的是 与多人互动，对吧？

You interact in some community or some small group setting.

你在某个社区 或某个小组环境中进行互动。

And I'm surprised that there's not more of that in AI.

令我惊讶的是，人工智能中 没有更多这样的东西。

So you're also in gaming.

所以你也在玩游戏。

I don't really game,

我真的不玩游戏，

but my understanding is that a lot of the gaming

但我的理解 是，很多游戏

is about connecting with the people, and it's a community kind of experience.

都是关于与人建立联系的， 这是一种社区式的体验。

So there's two things.

所以有两件事。

One, I'm really surprised that AI seems so focused on these,

第一，我真的很惊讶 人工智能似乎如此专注于这些，

like, one-on-one interactions

一对一的互动

as opposed to like, multiple AI agents

而不是像多个 AI 代理

creating a more immersive social experience.

创造更身临其境的 社交体验。

KG: I love you brought it up because that's really what we do.

KG：我喜欢你提出这个问题， 因为我们确实是这么做的。

BSL: Good, so that's one.

BSL：很好，原来如此。

Other thing, like, the reason I worry less about convergence

另一件事，比如，我之所以 不那么担心融合，

and more about divergence

而更多地担心分歧，

is if you could produce a more immersive social experience,

是因为如果你能创造出 更身临其境的社交体验，那么

now everybody’s having their individual social experiences.

现在每个人都有自己的 社交体验。

Like now, what I worry about with AI, with VR,

就像现在一样，我 担心的人工智能、

with all these kind of technologies that are expanding,

虚拟现 实、所有这些都在扩展技术，

what we can control about our social environment,

我们可以控制 我们的社交环境，

about our physical perceptions in the environment,

对环境 中的身体感知，

is that we all inhabit our own singular world.

是我们都生活 在自己的单一世界中。

That is more frightening to me than like, you know,

对我来说，这比我们都聚集在同样

that we all converged in the same experience.

的经历 中更可怕。

KG: Well, my mom’s a grade-seven teacher,

KG：嗯，我妈妈是一名 七年级的老师

and the one thing that she said is really interesting

她说的一件事非常有趣，

is if you went back like 20 years,

就是如果你回到 20 年前，

everybody was watching the same TV shows,

每个人都在看同样的电视节目，

and they come to class and they'd all be talking about it.

他们来上课 然后都在谈论这件事。

And now everybody watches their own favorite YouTube channel.

现在，每个人都在观看 自己喜欢的YouTube频道。

And it's the siloing of reality.

这是现实的孤立。

Like, what we do is when we work with games, for example,

比如，我们做的是当我们 处理游戏时，例如，

one of the interesting things is like, as people play through games,

有趣的事情之一就是， 当人们玩游戏时，

it's basically the same thing.

它基本上是同一回事。

You could have a million people go through a game,

你可以让一百万人 玩一场游戏，

and it’s some differences

这有一些区别，

but you're largely going to hit the same points.

但你基本上会 遇到同样的分数。

And so one of the things that we think about is,

因此，我们考虑的一件事是

what does that mean for agency?

这对代理机构意味着什么？

The way we interact with media

我们与媒体互动的方式

changes the way that we feel agency in the world.

改变了我们对世界的 代理感的方式。

So if we see inert media that we can't change,

因此，如果我们看到我们 无法改变的惰性媒体，

it also gives you this sense that you can't change the world.

它也会给你 一种你无法改变世界的感觉。

And so to your point,

因此，就你而言， 我们想在游戏中做

one of the things that we want to do with games is, how do you make it

的一件事是，如何

so that each person can actually influence that outcome?

让每个人都能真正 影响游戏结果？

And as you add more agents into that,

当你在其中添加更多代理时，

that you see, OK, I interact with this one and it has a cascade effect.

你会看到，好吧，我和这个 代理互动，它会产生级联效应。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

I mean, even in some of the stuff we've done here,

我的意思是，即使在我们所做 的一些事情中，

the magic actually happens when you do have those agents interacting,

魔法实际上也发生在你与 这些代理进行互动的时候，

because then you’re also not just seeing like that one-to-one interaction

因为那样你看到的 不仅仅是那种一对一的互动，

but the emergent effect of basically that interaction.

而是基本上这种互动 的突发效果。

And another thing is, if your main controls that you have in the computer

还有一件事是，如果你在 电脑中的主要控制

is like point-and-click or, in games, jump and shoot,

是点击或者在 游戏中是跳跃和射击，

we're trying to see like, what does it mean if social skills

我们正在尝试看看， 如果像这样的社交技巧

like interaction like this,

这样的互动的方式

are the ways that you actually interact with the games, the technology

与游戏、技术

and the agents.

和代理进行实际互动意味着 什么。

That’s a very different way of conversing or of dialogue than button presses.

这是一种与按下按钮截然不同 的对话或对话方式。

And I think that changes the way that you sense agents in the world.

而且我认为这改变了 你感知世界代理人的方式。

Because I think the way that most people change the world is by speaking

因为我认为大多数人改变世界 的方式

and interacting and interacting with other humans,

是与其他人说话和互动，

not by pressing buttons.

而不是按下按钮。

I mean, arguably it's the case in some.

我的意思是，可以说， 在某些情况下是这样。

BSL: You know, the other thing that's interesting to me is

BSL：你知道，我感兴趣 的另一件事是

I don't think people have an understanding

我认为人们不了解他们所

of the systems they exist in, right?

处的系统，对吧？

People think about themselves as existing in like individual relationships,

人们认为自己存在 于个人关系中，

and they have a harder time understanding system affects

他们更难 理解系统的影响，

like I affect you, which affects your partner,

就像我影响你一样， 它会影响你的伴侣

which affects your partner's parents, right?

影响你的伴侣的 父母，对吧？

That is a harder thing to grasp.

这是一件很难理解的事情。

But I think there's something that's fundamentally human about that.

但我认为，这从根本上 讲是人性化的。

Like you are also impacted by all these different things going on,

就像你也受到 所有这些不同的事情的影响

like, we had the person come and put on our makeup,

一样，比如，我们让那个人来 化妆，

and now I'm looking beautiful

现在我看起来很漂亮

and it's affecting everybody else around me.

这也影响着我周围的其他人。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

KG: It's glowing.

KG：它在发光。

BSL: Exactly.

BSL：没错。

How does that fit in?

这怎么适合？

I just haven't heard people talk about it in that way,

我只是没有听过人们以这种方式 谈论它，

which is surprising to me, because that, I think,

这让我感到惊讶， 因为我认为

is what fundamentally makes humans human.

这是使人类成为人类的根本原因。

It's interaction

这是互动

and complex social situations.

和复杂的社交场合。

KG: And these like, nested systems.

KG：比如嵌套系统。

And like, they all affect each other, right?

比如，它们都 相互影响，对吧？

You think that your small activity

你认为你的小活动

doesn't affect whatever higher-level political stuff,

不会影响任何 更高层次的政治问题，

but it's all aggregate.

但都是综合性的。

And it's all interlinking as well.

而且这一切也是相互关联的。

I mean, it's like the AI thing is interesting too,

我的意思是，人工智能的东西 也很有趣，

because I often hear people talk about it as like this evolution.

因为我经常听到人们把它当作 这样的进化来谈论。

You have like, you know, singular cells to monkeys to humans to AI.

你知道，从单一细胞到猴子 然后到人类最后到人工智能

Whereas like, you could flip it, where it's like more like, you know,

但是，你可以把它翻过来 ，你知道，它更像是

cells to organs to human to AI.

细胞到器官，再到人再到人工智能。

It's a system overarching that just because it's trained on us

这是一个总体系统 ， 只要它对我们进行了训练，

and we do these things, that we actually influence that system,

我们做了这些事情，我们就会真正 影响这个系统，

now that people are interacting with it, it has this interplay.

既然人们正在与之互动， 它就会产生这种相互作用。

And that's interesting too, when it becomes like, you know,

这也很有趣， 当它变成，

AI isn't this singular entity.

人工智能不是这个单一的实体时。

It is more of an institution or a system almost

它更像是一个几乎可以

that is kind of overarching everything else.

支配其他 一切的机构 或系统。

BSL: And it's also weird because it's like our vision of who we are.

BSL：这也很奇怪，因为这 就像我们对自己的看法。

So when we talk about AGI,

因此，当我们谈论 AGI 时，

it's like we don't even know what intelligence is

就像我们甚至不知道 什么是智能

and we think we're going to produce something that has it.

我们认为我们会生产出具有智能 的东西。

It's just an interesting situation where we talk about it, as you said,

这只是一个有趣的情况， 我们谈论它，正如你所说，

it's natural evolution,

它是自然进化，

but in fact we’re creating it,

但实际上我们正在创造它

and it's not clear that we know exactly what it is we're creating.

尚不清楚我们是否确切地知道 我们在创造什么。

KG: I actually think that one of the most interesting things

KG：实际上，我认为 最有趣的事情之一

is that we're starting to work on AI at a point where,

是我们开始 研究人工智能的时刻，

like, I still think we're figuring out, you know, ourselves.

比如，我仍然认为我们 自己正在弄清楚。

Neuroscience is very early on in its days,

神经科学还处于起步阶段

and yet we're creating things

但是我们正在 创造类似的东西

that are like, based on our own intelligence,

基于自己的智力

and we don't really understand even what's going on inside.

甚至我们根本不了解 内部发生的事情。

And so to your point on, what are the effects?

那么就你而言，效果 是什么？

We don't really know yet.

我们还不知道。

Every year a new paper comes out

每年都会发表一篇新论文

and changes how people think about child rearing.

改变人们对抚养孩子的看法。

Like how to bring up a child well, like all those kinds of things.

比如何好好抚养孩子， 就像所有这些事情。

And now we're creating systems that will, you know,

你知道，现在我们正在创建的系统 将在

kind of be overarching other humans.

某种程度上支配其他人类。

What does that mean, I don't know.

那是什么意思，我不知道。

I do actually think,

实际上，我确实在想，

I happen to be in AI, we happen to be at this point in time.

我碰巧在人工智能领域， 我们恰好处于这个时刻。

But if we could pause for a second,

但我认为，如果我们能停顿一秒钟

I think it would be good, another few centuries of figuring out what we are

那就太好了，在我们创造出 符合我们想象的东西

and understanding that a little bit better

之前，再 弄清楚自己是什么样子

before we created something that was in our image.

并更好地理解 这一点。

Because, we’re kind of just, you know,

因为，我们有点，你知道吧，

it's kind of like taking a photograph and like painting it, right?

有点像拍照 然后画画，对吧？

You're not actually getting the person and painting it.

实际上，你没有找到 人物然后画它。

There's something about the life that's missing there.

那里的生命 中有些缺失。

So I do agree.

所以我确实同意。

I think that we're honestly kind of premature,

说实话，我认为 我们现在还为时过早，

but I think it's just how, I guess,

但我认为，我猜，

you know, life goes that things come out when they naturally should.

你知道，生活就是这样的， 事物自然应该出现。

BSL: So, I mean, you work in AI,

BSL：所以，我的意思是， 你在人工智能领域工作，

so what's the most exciting thing for you in AI?

那么在人工智能领域对你来说最 令人兴奋的事情是什么？

What's your hope for it?

你对此有什么希望？

KG: I think it's kind of back to that agency question.

KG：我认为这又回 到了那个代理的问题。

So I mean, you know, you read a news story,

所以我的意思是， 你知道，

you read a book, you watch a movie, you watch a TV show,

你读新闻报道，读书，看电影， 看电视节目，

this is specific to, like, my domain,

这是我的领域所特有的，

like there's something about the communication

比如

that we're having right now where, like,

说，我们现在的沟通，比如，

I'm adapting to the things that you say, to your body language,

我正在适应你所说的话， 你的肢体语言，

all those kinds of things, right?

诸如此类，对吧？

To, like, the people in the room we have here, all these things.

对我们房间里的人来说， 所有这些东西。

And so when you have ...

所以当你有...

AI able to, sort of, help that adaptation so that you have that agency

人工智能能够在某种程度 上帮助你进行适应，这样你就能

in the things that you interact with.

在与之互动的事物中 拥有这样的代理权。

I don't necessarily believe in fully personalized media

我不一定相信 完全个性化的媒体，

because I think we need like a shared social context.

因为我认为我们需要 一个共享的社交环境。

The reason we watch a movie or a TV show

我们看电影或电视节目的原因

is because then we can all talk about it, right?

是因为那样我们就可以 谈论了，对吧？

But there is something about the fact

但是有一个事实是

that we're all interacting with these internet objects.

我们都在 与这些互联网对象进行交互。

And so the way that technology feels, you're on a screen, it doesn't change.

因此，科技的感觉， 你在屏幕上，它不会改变。

You're in a movie, it doesn't change.

你在看电影，情况不会改变。

You're watching Netflix, it doesn't change depending on what you do.

你在看 Netflix，它不会 因你所做的事情而改变。

And I think that changes the way we see our own agency in the world.

而且我认为这改变了我们在世界上 看待自己的代理机构的方式。

And so I hope with AI that one of the things that it does

因此，我希望通过人工智能 它能做的一件事

is kind of opens this door to agency

就是为代理机构打开这扇大门

in the way that we interact with media and technology in general,

以我们与媒体 和技术互动的总体方式，

such that we do notice that effect that you have on systems.

这样我们就能注意到 你对系统的影响。

Because even if it's small, right,

因为即使它很小，对吧

where I take a certain action and it completely changes an app

我采取某种行动， 它会彻底改变应用程序

or it changes an experience,

或改变体验，

maybe that helps us learn that we have an effect in the social systems

也许这可以帮助我们了解我们 对社交系统

as well that we're affecting.

也有影响，我们正在影响什么。

So something to that effect.

所以大意如此。

BSL: So you want to make our agency more transparent.

BSL：所以你想让 我们的机构更加透明。

And do you think it does that,

你认为它能做到吗，

because right now I'm not sure it doesn't obfuscate our agency.

因为我现在不确定 它不会混淆我们的机构。

KG: No I don't necessarily know.

KG：不，我不一定知道。

I agree, I mean this is why I think also

我同意，我的意思是 这就是为什么我认为

media and games is, you know, the domain I mainly focus on.

媒体和游戏也是我主要关注 的领域。

And I think it's interesting, especially because young people use it a lot.

而且我认为这很有趣，尤其是 因为年轻人经常使用它。

And so I've heard very veteran game developers say

因此，我听过非常资深的 游戏开发者说人们

how people interact with games

如何与游戏互动

kind of trains kids how they should interact with the world.

就像训练孩子 如何与世界互动。

So even people who tend to be professional players in different games

因此，即使是那些在不同游戏中 倾向于成为职业玩家的人

have different psychological profiles

也有不同的心理特征，

because they bias towards certain ways of interacting and seeing the world.

因为他们偏向于某些 互动和看待世界的方式。

The same way, I guess, if you trained in something academic, right,

我猜也一样，如果你接受过学术 方面的培训，对吧，

you have a different way of viewing it.

你有不同的看法。

And so if we make games and media in a way

因此，如果我们以一种 让你也能感受到

that you feel that sort of social impact as well,

这种社会影响的方式 制作游戏和媒体，

maybe, maybe it opens the door to like, another realm of understanding.

也许，它会打开通往 另一个理解领域的大门。

But, yeah, I agree that like a lot of the systems that we have today

但是，是的，我同意，就像我们 今天的许多系统一样，可能还会

give you maybe a false sense also of agency

给你一种虚假的代理

where like we were talking about the AI systems,

意识，就像我们在 谈论人工智能 系统一样，你实际上感觉自己

where you actually feel like you're controlling this thing,

在控制这个东西，

whereas maybe it's also biasing, you know, and "controlling,"

而 你知道的，它可能还有偏见，和 “控制”，也会对你

having some influence over you as well.

产生一定的影响。

BSL: So where do you think things are going?

BSL：那么你认为 事情会走向何方？

So there's obviously a huge race among some very,

因此，一些资源

very well-resourced organizations over AI, right?

非常充足 的组织之间显然存在着 围绕人工智能的激烈竞争，对吧？

You know, Microsoft, Google, I mean, are the biggest maybe.

例如，微软、 谷歌可能是最大的。

And they are very quickly going to need to monetize it

而且他们 很快就需要通过它获利，

because this is what those companies are designed to do.

因为这是 这些公司的设计目标。

Like what do you foresee?

比如你能预见什么？

Because I just look at social media as an example.

因为我只是 以社交媒体为例。

I think, at the time when it first came out,

我认为， 当它刚问世时，

people were really excited, as a new way to connect with people

人们真的很兴奋，作为一种与人 建立联系的新方式，也是一种

and a way to stay connected to people

与你认识的人保持联系的方式，

you know, you couldn't otherwise;

否则你无法做到的；

catch up with people you lost contact with,

赶上失去联系的人 ，

that sort of thing.

诸如此类的事情。

And it changed into something else.

然后它变成了另外一回事。

In large part because of the way it was monetized,

这在很大程度上是由于 其获利方式，

like going to ads, focus on attention.

例如投放广告，因此 将注意力集中在注意力上。

What's the trajectory of AI?

人工智能的轨迹是什么？

KG: You know, I'm taking guesses.

KG：你知道，我在猜一猜。

BSL: Yeah, of course, we're all taking guesses,

BSL：是的，当然， 我们都在猜测，

I won’t hold you to it, don’t worry.

我不会强迫你去猜的，别担心。

KG: I think that the reality is,

KG：我认为现实是，

we were kind of mentioning before about the challenges of scale.

我们之前曾提到 过规模的挑战。

And when you invest tens of billions of dollars in something,

而且，当你在某件 事上投资数百亿美元时，

you need scale.

你需要规模。

And I think that's one of -- the way that AI is developed

我认为这是其中之一 —— 人工智能 的开发方式

and specifically even the types of models we're using,

特别是我们正在 使用的模型类型，

the economic model of it,

它的经济模型，

which is effectively the more compute you have,

它实际上是你的计算越多，

the better models you can create.

你可以创造的模型越好。

The better models you can create, the more usage you get.

您可以创建的模型越好，获得 的使用量就越多。

The more usage you get, the better.

使用量越多越好。

So it has somewhat of a, honestly, like monopolistic tendency, I think,

因此，说实话， 我认为它

in the way that actually even like the architectures

在某种程度上有一种垄断倾向， 其运作方式甚至就像它的架构

and the economy of it works.

和经济一样。

And so

因此，

I think it's almost inevitable that whatever AI systems are produced

我认为， 无论这些大型组织生产

by these large organizations

什么人工智能系统，都

will be pushed to scale as quickly as possible.

将尽快扩大规模， 这是几乎不可避免的。

And there's some pluses in that where like, you know, sure,

这其中有一些优点， 比如，你知道，当然，

they're building in feedback loops, people can give their input, it biases it.

他们正在建立反馈循环，人们 可以提出自己的意见，这会造成偏见。

But also at the same time,

但同时，当一个模型适合 十亿人时，这意味着

what does it mean when a single model is fit to a billion people, right?

什么，对吧？

So that's kind of what I meant about the converging effect

所以这就是我所 说的聚合效应的意思，

where, what happens when we are pushed to produce something

当我们被迫生产

that fits to a billion people?

适合十亿人的产品时会发生什么？

There's a lot of diversity in there.

里面有很多多样性。

And so, you know, we create these scaled systems that are fitting with the whole,

因此，你知道，我们创建了这些 与整体相适应的缩放系统，

like, trying to fit the whole planet.

比如试图适应整个地球。

Does that work?

那行得通吗？

And so I think what will, you know,

所以我想会怎样，你知道，

we're going to go through this phase where like, yeah,

我们将经历这个 阶段，比如，是的，

you're going to have a billion people interacting the same AI.

你将有十亿人使用相同的人工智能 进行交互。

And I don't know what the effect of that will be.

而且我不知道那 会产生什么影响。

Even the monetization models now are kind of you pay

即使是现在的 盈利模式也是你

to use these kinds of things, which are maybe OK,

为使用这类东西付出代价的， 这也许没问题，

but certainly ads will probably enter the equation.

但广告肯定会被纳入 其中。

Also, what happens when you want attention

另外，当你需要关注

and AI is much better at that than the algorithms

和人工智能时发生的事情比你在

you even have on YouTube and Instagram.

YouTube和Instagram 上使用的算法要好得多。

And you can start to capture that attention.

然后你就可以开始 吸引这种注意力了。

And so I certainly think it's going to be an interesting little bit here now,

因此，我当然认为现在这里会 是一件有趣的事情，

as we see these huge organizations spending tens of billions of dollars

因为我们看到这些大型组织 花费了数百亿美元

and the choices that they make to then monetize that,

他们做出了哪些选择， 然后通过这种方式获利，

and what that means for how AI proliferates.

以及这对 人工智能的扩散意味着什么。

I know a lot of the folks in the organizations,

我认识组织 中的很多人

and their interests have never been in that domain.

他们的兴趣 从未出现在这个领域。

But at the same time, you're beholden, you know,

但同时，你知道， 你受股市利益的束缚，

to stock market interests and whatever it is, then what happens?

不管 它是什么，然后会发生什么？

It shifts it, right?

它会改变它，对吧？

We're in a capitalist world.

我们处在一个资本主义世界中。

And that's kind of like, you know,

这就有点像

what ultimately will change the incentives.

最终会改变激励措施 的因素。

So yeah it's interesting.

所以是的，这很有趣。

I mean I am interested in, coming from your background,

我的意思是，从你的背景 来看，我很感兴趣，

you have a very different stance on it.

你对此的立场截然不同。

But, you know, it's all this AI stuff is interesting.

但是，你知道，所有这些 人工智能的东西都很有趣。

But, you know, when you think, almost to your first question,

但是，你知道，当你思考 几乎是你的第一个问题时，

what makes us human and like as people,

是什么让我们成为人类， 就像人一样，

just technology in general and specifically with AI,

只是一般 的技术，特别是人工智能，

like where can people find the meaning in their life,

比如人们在哪里可以找到 生活中的意义，

the values that they find true?

他们认为真实的价值观？

And how will that change, do you think,

你觉得那会有什么变化

I guess, with like the advent of these new technologies?

伴随这些新技术的出现 一样

Or how have you seen it change

或者，你是否看到它伴随着 我们已经看到的技术变为现实变化

with the technologies we've already seen come to life?

BSL: This is going to sound like a funny answer.

BSL：这听起来 像是一个有趣的答案。

I think people are too worked up about technology, personally.

就我个人而言，我认为人们 对技术太着迷了。

I mean, you know, we had this conversation.

我的意思是，你知道， 我们进行了这样的交谈。

I think, you know, people have been using technology since we've been human.

我认为，自从我们成为人类以来， 人们就一直在使用技术。

So paper was a huge invention.

所以纸是一项伟大的发明。

Talked about this.

谈过这个。

The printing press, huge invention.

印刷机，伟大的发明。

Computer, huge invention.

计算机，伟大的发明。

Internet, huge invention.

互联网，伟大的发明。

AI, great, another huge invention.

AI，太棒了，又一个伟大的发明。

And through all of that, I think

综上所述，我认为

what you see in a lot of the biggest technologies

你在许多 最大的技术中看到

is the desire to connect with other human beings.

的是 与其他人建立联系的愿望。

I think what fundamentally makes us human is our connection to other human beings,

我认为使我们成为人类的根本原因 是我们与其他人的联系，

our ability to engage with other human beings, and like consciousness

我们与其他人 互动的能力，以及意识

and all these other things I think are necessary preconditions.

和所有其他我认为 是必要的先决条件的东西。

But really, what makes us human is connections with other humans.

但实际上，使我们成为人类 的是与其他人的联系。

And that is incredibly complex.

这非常复杂。

And I don't think we're close in terms of technology of replicating that.

而且我认为我们能创造足以复制 上述的方面的科技还差很多。

I mean, even what you described it's like you have this feeling of like,

我的意思是，即使是你所描述的 那样，你也有这样的感觉，

this isn't right, this is off.

这是不对的，这是不对的。

And even if you felt like it was right,

而且，即使你觉得这是对的，

it still would be off in ways you didn't quite get.

它仍然会以 你不太明白的方式失效。

I don't think we're close.

我认为我们离得很远。

Though because it's designed to pull our attention away from other things,

但是，由于它旨在将我们的注意力 从其他事情上移开，因此

I think it impedes our ability

我认为它阻碍了我们 做我们所有人想做的事情，

to do what we all kind of want to do,

即相互互动的能力。

which is interact with each other.

And it might change the way we interact with each other

而且它可能会改变 我们彼此互动的方式

in a way that might feel less fulfilling.

以使人感到不那么充实的途径。

And I think you see some of that in social interactions now.

我想你现在 在社交互动中看到了其中的一部分。

Some of that I mean, recently maybe,

我的意思是，最近，

COVID was an issue.

新冠病毒可能是一个问题。

But, you know, people feeling less comfortable in face-to-face interactions.

但是，你知道，人们在面对面的 互动中感觉不太舒服。

Like people dating,

就像人们约会一样，

there's no serendipity in hanging out and you meet who you meet.

出去玩没有偶然的机会， 你会遇到你遇到的人。

It's like you're using an algorithm to try to present to you options.

就像你在使用算法来尝试 向你呈现选项一样。

That's a very different world.

那是一个截然不同的世界。

So even that's prior to AI.

因此，即便如此， 也是在人工智能出现之前。

And I don't know how AI is going to further influence that.

而且我不知道人工智能 将如何进一步影响这一点。

KG: And I guess just even like the general point,

KG：我想 即使和一般观点一样，你认为

how core do you think

人际关系的核心需求

the need for connection is

有多重要

in the sense that, you know,

因为你知道，

I've heard some parents say that, through COVID,

听过一些家长 说，经历过新冠病毒，

their kids went through a major change, you know,

他们的孩子经历了重大变化，

these regressions,

退化

their different habits and these kinds of things

他们不同的习惯 和诸如此类的事情，

because they weren't connecting with people.

他们没有与人 建立联系。

And then it's taken years to overcome that.

然后花了好几年时间才克 服这个问题。

So I do also wonder, like, you know,

所以我也想知道，

whether it's through technology or things like COVID

无论是通过技术 还是新冠病毒之类的东西，

or just like circumstances,

还是像环境一样，我们

could we lose that need for connection?

能否失去对连接的需求？

Or even if we need it,

或者，即使我们需要它，

you know, we might lose the desire for it

我们可能会失去对它的渴望，

and feel emotional trauma as a result, but still not go for it.

并因此感到情感创伤， 但仍然无法去做。

Like, how core do you think it is?

比如，你认为它有多核心？

And do you think we're safe in that kind of need?

而且你认为我们在这种需求 中安全吗？

BSL: So I'm going to give you the most extreme answer,

BSL：所以我要给你一个最极端 的答案，我认为

which is I think the true one.

这是真实的答案。

That you will cease to be human

你将不再是人类

if you don't have a need for human connection.

如果你不需要人际关系。

Like I think you will be a physical person,

就像我认为你将成为 一个自然人一样，

but you will literally break down as a human being.

但你实际上会像人 一样崩溃。

And this is why in part --

这就是为什么

Social isolation

社交隔离

or solitary confinement is considered inhumane.

或单独监禁在某种程度上被认为 是不人道的。

Because people literally break down,

因为人们真的会崩溃，所以

you will start to have hallucinations.

你会开始产生幻觉。

You will break down mentally and physically absent human connection.

如果没有人际关系，你将在精神 和身体上崩溃。

So I don’t think there’s any possibility, in my mind, of losing the need.

因此， 在我看来，不可能失去需求。

Like, you may get less than you need,

比如，你得到的可能会比你需要的少

and that will have negative consequences for you.

，这将对你 产生负面影响。

But I'm not worried about people not wanting to be around people.

但我并不担心人们 不想和别人在一起。

KG: Are you worried that, like,

KG：你是否担心

things like social media or AI or any of these things

诸如社交媒体 或人工智能之类的东西

could give you that sense that you're fulfilling that need,

会让你感觉 到你在满足需求，

but not actually fulfilling it?

但实际上并没有满足需求？

It's totally true, right?

这是完全正确的，对吧？

Solitary confinement is a great example because we need it.

单独监禁就是一个很好的例子， 因为我们需要它。

We absolutely lose our sanity as well as, you know, our well-being.

你知道，我们绝对会失去理智， 也失去了身心健康。

But maybe we can, you know,

但是，也许我们可以，

technology can manufacture the sense that we're fulfilling it.

技术可以制造 出我们正在实现它的感觉。

And then over time,

然后随着时间的推移，

we see these mental health crises evolve as a result?

我们会看到这些心理健康危机因此 而演变吗？

BSL: Yeah, that's a good question.

BSL：是的，这是个好问题。

I think it's unlikely, but I don't know.

我认为这不太可能，但我不知道。

Honestly I don't know.

老实说我不知道。

I'll talk about meaning for a second.

我一会儿再谈意义。

And I think of that as fundamentally tied

我认为这与我们与他人建立联系 的需求息息相关

to our need for connection to other people.

I think sometimes we confuse, for example, our need for meaning,

例如，我认为有时候我们会将 对意义的需求

with a desire for personal achievement.

与对个人成就的渴望混淆。

That we chase personal achievement

我们追求个人成就

and what we're trying to do is generate meaning.

我们 想要做的是创造意义。

So I think we can be confused

因此，我认为我们可能会感到困惑

and we can have those needs displaced into less productive routes.

我们可能会将这些需求转移 到效率较低的道路上。

But I don't think it's going away.

但我认为它不会消失。

But, you know, I don't know that it's the healthiest.

但是，你知道，我不 知道它是最健康的。

KG: No, I'm totally aligned.

KG：不，我完全一致。

Thank you, Brian, that was an awesome conversation.

谢谢你，布莱恩， 这是一次很棒的谈话。

BSL: It was great to talk to you.

BSL：很高兴和你交谈。

Really fantastic and super informative. Thank you.

真的很棒而且内容 非常丰富。谢谢。