What Makes Us Human in the Age of AI? A Psychologist and a Technologist Answer | TED Intersections

48,322 views ・ 2024-09-10

TED


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Brian S. Lowery: If you could produce a more immersive social experience,
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now everybody's having their individual social experiences.
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Like now what I worry about with AI, with VR,
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with all these kind of technologies that are expanding,
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we all inhabit our own singular world.
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That is more frightening to me than like, you know,
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that we all converged in the same experience.
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[Intersections]
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[Brian S. Lowery: Social psychologist]
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[Kylan Gibbs: Technologist]
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BSL: So what makes a human a human?
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(Laughter)
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Kylan Gibbs: It’s one of those questions, isn’t it?
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I mean, there's like, two ways I would look at it.
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One is from my personal life and one is from my work life.
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One thing that's interesting is like,
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there's been points when I've been spending
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four to five hours a day interacting with AI.
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And the interesting thing that happens in that is the things that you notice,
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when you first start interacting with it, oh, this is really realistic.
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Similarly when people first had black and white TV and they're like,
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wow, this is like real life.
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But then as you get used to it, you start to kind of realize,
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the things that make it less authentic.
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And I think something that I realized with AI is
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there's certain ways that we interact that are just more spontaneous.
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There's something about the predictability of AI that teaches you
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about the spontaneity of being human.
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The ways they communicate, the naturalness, the contextual awareness.
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These little things that all add up.
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That's on the technical side.
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On the other side,
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there's something of just the shared experience of being human
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that actually I think differentiates it from other animals’ experience.
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You know, you have a traumatic moment in your life,
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and then you start to resonate with other people's.
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I feel like every time I've had something nearly catastrophic,
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it opened up a new door of empathy, and then you start to be like,
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oh man, that really hurt, you know?
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Or like when you cry about something, you're like, wow.
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And then you start to remember, like this is what usually happens to me.
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I start crying about something,
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and then I think about all the things that I did for my mom or my grandma
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and the things that they felt.
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And I feel like there's something in that kind of like shared experience
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where we have these things that differentiate us,
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we’re all different people.
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But there’s something about those common feelings
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that it all kind of arises from that.
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Anyway, that's one thought.
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BSL: I love that answer, and I want to say that you're not normal in that way.
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Here's why I don't think you're normal.
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People anthropomorphize anything.
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It doesn't have to even be that good, right?
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It doesn't have to be anywhere near as good AI
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for people to treat it like it has some human character,
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people treat their cars like they're people.
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So I'm surprised that when you interact with it a lot,
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it feels less real to you.
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KG: There's something about resolution.
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It's like the way of seeing the world and you kind of increase this.
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It's like the same reason you can't look at TV that's not 4K now.
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And it's someone I think who worked on early VR was saying, you know,
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the interesting thing about it was when you stepped out of it,
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you're like, oh, the real world is actually amazing.
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And it's actually really hard to recreate that in technology.
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And I think the same is true for AI, it's like maybe for some people,
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when they interact with it,
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the thing that they see is some commonality.
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But the thing that I always notice is,
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this is very different from the conversations I have with my parents.
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Even when it says something similar, there’s something off.
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It's those little things,
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that's like I think what, over time, will add up
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as people use AI more, is they’ll start to recognize,
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and I can't even point at them like, what are those nuances, though,
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that make us human?
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BSL: You just know it when you see it and you're like,
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and it's missing an AI.
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I mean that's also interesting
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because what you just suggested is that the more people use AI,
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the less real it's going to feel to people.
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Do you think that's what's going to happen?
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KG: I mean, there's probably another case, you know,
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it's the same way as, you know,
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your Instagram and Facebook feed isn't a real conversation.
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There are certainly, kids especially, who would look at those kinds of feeds
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and feel like, oh, that's a real representation of my friends
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or my favorite celebrities or whatever I actually think,
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when it's like completely -- I shouldn't say completely --
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largely false.
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And I do think something similar will happen with AI,
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where some people for sure will almost be encaptured.
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And they will believe
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that that's the most realistic thing that exists
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and then start to compare people to that.
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But I think that, you know, if you have that degree of empathy,
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you'll be like, oh, there's something off here.
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It's the same way even if you use a Zoom call, there's something off.
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It's hard to pick it up.
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But like, I’m not picking up all the signals,
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and it's the very little nuances
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that you probably just subtly pick up as well.
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BSL: So you don't think that the technology
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is going to advance quickly enough,
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where it’ll overcome those little things fast enough to capture all of us?
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You're not worried about that?
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KG: I am definitely worried about that.
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Mainly because because I think for most people it's easy, right?
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So the thing about AI is it's so beholden,
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at least if you think about like, the chatbot styles,
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it's so beholden to what we want.
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And that's kind of like what people, I think,
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a lot of people want in their life or they need,
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is the sense of control.
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And the AI gives you the sense that, like,
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I can control this anthropomorphic thing.
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And honestly, one of my fears is that people get used to that.
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And what does it mean when I get used to interacting with something
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that is beholden to only my views and interests,
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and then I go and interact with a human who has their own interests?
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BSL: Do you think people want control?
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I think people want to be controlled.
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KG: Maybe it's a form of control, though.
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To be controlled is a predictability, I guess.
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BSL: Yeah, people want the world to make sense, don't you think?
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KG: Yes, yes, I think they also want the world to be ...
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There's something about, like, preferring predictability over optimality.
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So, like, I've even felt it when you have, you know,
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a mental health moment,
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you have friends who have mental health moments.
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The things that I've always seen as interesting
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is your brain and your mind prefer to stay in a state that's familiar,
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even if it's worse.
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So if you're in like a depressed state,
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you almost would rather like stick in that than break outside of it, right?
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So there's something about things that are familiar
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rather than actually better.
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And I don't know, there's a bias towards, you know,
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you almost identifying then with those kinds of states.
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BSL: Yeah, there's research on this.
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One, it's called the status quo bias.
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People like things that are already there.
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And two, people like to have what they believe about themselves affirmed
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if they really believe them, even if they're not positive.
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So that is true.
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So, like, what does that look like in AI?
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(Laughter)
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KG: I mean, it's definitely interesting to me that people seem to love like,
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you talk to a lot of these things and they sound like computers
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and they sound like AI, but people love it
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because it's kind of familiar, it's controllable.
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If you start to add lots of personalities and these kinds of things,
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it makes sense in context, but I found it interesting
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that as we started developing these AI systems
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that people interact with,
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they all have this kind of similar voice.
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And it's a very "AI voice."
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You can kind of tell that you're talking to an AI.
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Maybe that’s intentional.
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But there is something there, where like, I think people have a preference
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to getting what they want from humans, from humans,
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and from AI, from AI.
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But that could blend,
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there's already lots of, you know,
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people in certain demographics who spend a lot of time on the internet
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and they start to identify,
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that's their favorite form of interacting with people.
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And so I do think that there's a reality where,
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as we move into the future,
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there will be people who bias towards that for whatever reasons.
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Whether it's the comfort of knowing that someone's not judging them,
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whether it's like the format that it speaks to you with,
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that will kind of bias towards preferring those types of interactions.
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But on the other hand, I always think
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there’ll be a distribution of people,
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and you'll have some people who really don't like it.
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And, you know, like I was saying,
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the more that I interact with it now, I find it almost painful
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because I just pick up on so many of these issues
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that you're like, I can't even use it at a certain point.
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And, you know, you'd think that, like, you know,
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I’m in the AI space, and I write 20-page docs.
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I don't need AI for a single bit of it
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because it does remove that voice.
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And I do also wonder, though,
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as people interact with it more,
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will they either identify the differences
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or start to conform to the things that they're trained with AI.
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It's the same as if you interact with your partner for example, right?
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You start to be biased by the communication
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because you're talking so much.
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BSL: You mean they're training you?
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KG: They're training you.
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Your partner is probably like, you know,
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they have a preferred way of communicating.
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You get used to it, these kinds of things.
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So I do wonder if, as people interact with AI more,
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that they'll kind of all converge.
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That's probably one of my biggest fears actually of AI.
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BSL: I'm concerned about the exact opposite.
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I'm going to shift a little bit.
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So when we talk about AI, what you're describing,
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it's usually like dyadic interactions.
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Like, I'm interacting with one AI, one agent.
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But really what people do is interact with multiple people, right?
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You interact in some community or some small group setting.
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And I'm surprised that there's not more of that in AI.
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So you're also in gaming.
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I don't really game,
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but my understanding is that a lot of the gaming
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is about connecting with the people, and it's a community kind of experience.
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So there's two things.
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One, I'm really surprised that AI seems so focused on these,
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like, one-on-one interactions
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as opposed to like, multiple AI agents
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creating a more immersive social experience.
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KG: I love you brought it up because that's really what we do.
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BSL: Good, so that's one.
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Other thing, like, the reason I worry less about convergence
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and more about divergence
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is if you could produce a more immersive social experience,
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now everybody’s having their individual social experiences.
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Like now, what I worry about with AI, with VR,
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with all these kind of technologies that are expanding,
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what we can control about our social environment,
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about our physical perceptions in the environment,
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is that we all inhabit our own singular world.
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That is more frightening to me than like, you know,
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that we all converged in the same experience.
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KG: Well, my mom’s a grade-seven teacher,
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and the one thing that she said is really interesting
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is if you went back like 20 years,
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everybody was watching the same TV shows,
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and they come to class and they'd all be talking about it.
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And now everybody watches their own favorite YouTube channel.
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And it's the siloing of reality.
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Like, what we do is when we work with games, for example,
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one of the interesting things is like, as people play through games,
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it's basically the same thing.
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You could have a million people go through a game,
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and it’s some differences
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but you're largely going to hit the same points.
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And so one of the things that we think about is,
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what does that mean for agency?
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The way we interact with media
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changes the way that we feel agency in the world.
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So if we see inert media that we can't change,
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it also gives you this sense that you can't change the world.
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And so to your point,
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one of the things that we want to do with games is, how do you make it
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so that each person can actually influence that outcome?
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And as you add more agents into that,
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that you see, OK, I interact with this one and it has a cascade effect.
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I love it.
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I mean, even in some of the stuff we've done here,
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the magic actually happens when you do have those agents interacting,
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because then you’re also not just seeing like that one-to-one interaction
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but the emergent effect of basically that interaction.
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And another thing is, if your main controls that you have in the computer
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is like point-and-click or, in games, jump and shoot,
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we're trying to see like, what does it mean if social skills
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like interaction like this,
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are the ways that you actually interact with the games, the technology
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and the agents.
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That’s a very different way of conversing or of dialogue than button presses.
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And I think that changes the way that you sense agents in the world.
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Because I think the way that most people change the world is by speaking
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and interacting and interacting with other humans,
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not by pressing buttons.
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I mean, arguably it's the case in some.
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BSL: You know, the other thing that's interesting to me is
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I don't think people have an understanding
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of the systems they exist in, right?
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People think about themselves as existing in like individual relationships,
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and they have a harder time understanding system affects
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like I affect you, which affects your partner,
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which affects your partner's parents, right?
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That is a harder thing to grasp.
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But I think there's something that's fundamentally human about that.
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Like you are also impacted by all these different things going on,
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like, we had the person come and put on our makeup,
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and now I'm looking beautiful
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and it's affecting everybody else around me.
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(Laughter)
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KG: It's glowing.
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BSL: Exactly.
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How does that fit in?
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I just haven't heard people talk about it in that way,
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which is surprising to me, because that, I think,
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is what fundamentally makes humans human.
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It's interaction
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and complex social situations.
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KG: And these like, nested systems.
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And like, they all affect each other, right?
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You think that your small activity
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doesn't affect whatever higher-level political stuff,
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but it's all aggregate.
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And it's all interlinking as well.
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I mean, it's like the AI thing is interesting too,
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because I often hear people talk about it as like this evolution.
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You have like, you know, singular cells to monkeys to humans to AI.
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Whereas like, you could flip it, where it's like more like, you know,
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cells to organs to human to AI.
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It's a system overarching that just because it's trained on us
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and we do these things, that we actually influence that system,
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now that people are interacting with it, it has this interplay.
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And that's interesting too, when it becomes like, you know,
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AI isn't this singular entity.
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It is more of an institution or a system almost
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that is kind of overarching everything else.
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BSL: And it's also weird because it's like our vision of who we are.
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So when we talk about AGI,
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it's like we don't even know what intelligence is
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and we think we're going to produce something that has it.
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It's just an interesting situation where we talk about it, as you said,
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it's natural evolution,
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but in fact we’re creating it,
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and it's not clear that we know exactly what it is we're creating.
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KG: I actually think that one of the most interesting things
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is that we're starting to work on AI at a point where,
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like, I still think we're figuring out, you know, ourselves.
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13:43
Neuroscience is very early on in its days,
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and yet we're creating things
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that are like, based on our own intelligence,
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and we don't really understand even what's going on inside.
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13:53
And so to your point on, what are the effects?
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We don't really know yet.
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Every year a new paper comes out
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13:59
and changes how people think about child rearing.
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14:02
Like how to bring up a child well, like all those kinds of things.
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And now we're creating systems that will, you know,
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14:07
kind of be overarching other humans.
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What does that mean, I don't know.
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I do actually think,
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I happen to be in AI, we happen to be at this point in time.
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But if we could pause for a second,
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I think it would be good, another few centuries of figuring out what we are
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and understanding that a little bit better
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14:23
before we created something that was in our image.
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Because, we’re kind of just, you know,
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it's kind of like taking a photograph and like painting it, right?
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14:30
You're not actually getting the person and painting it.
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14:33
There's something about the life that's missing there.
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So I do agree.
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14:37
I think that we're honestly kind of premature,
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but I think it's just how, I guess,
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14:41
you know, life goes that things come out when they naturally should.
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BSL: So, I mean, you work in AI,
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so what's the most exciting thing for you in AI?
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What's your hope for it?
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14:54
KG: I think it's kind of back to that agency question.
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14:57
So I mean, you know, you read a news story,
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15:01
you read a book, you watch a movie, you watch a TV show,
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15:03
this is specific to, like, my domain,
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15:06
like there's something about the communication
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15:08
that we're having right now where, like,
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15:10
I'm adapting to the things that you say, to your body language,
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15:13
all those kinds of things, right?
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15:15
To, like, the people in the room we have here, all these things.
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15:18
And so when you have ...
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15:20
AI able to, sort of, help that adaptation so that you have that agency
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15:24
in the things that you interact with.
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15:26
I don't necessarily believe in fully personalized media
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15:28
because I think we need like a shared social context.
364
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15:31
The reason we watch a movie or a TV show
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15:33
is because then we can all talk about it, right?
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15:35
But there is something about the fact
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15:37
that we're all interacting with these internet objects.
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15:40
And so the way that technology feels, you're on a screen, it doesn't change.
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15:44
You're in a movie, it doesn't change.
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15:45
You're watching Netflix, it doesn't change depending on what you do.
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3212
15:49
And I think that changes the way we see our own agency in the world.
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15:52
And so I hope with AI that one of the things that it does
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15:55
is kind of opens this door to agency
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15:58
in the way that we interact with media and technology in general,
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16:01
such that we do notice that effect that you have on systems.
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16:04
Because even if it's small, right,
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16:06
where I take a certain action and it completely changes an app
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16:09
or it changes an experience,
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16:10
maybe that helps us learn that we have an effect in the social systems
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16:15
as well that we're affecting.
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16:16
So something to that effect.
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16:18
BSL: So you want to make our agency more transparent.
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16:21
And do you think it does that,
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16:22
because right now I'm not sure it doesn't obfuscate our agency.
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16:25
KG: No I don't necessarily know.
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16:27
I agree, I mean this is why I think also
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16:30
media and games is, you know, the domain I mainly focus on.
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16:33
And I think it's interesting, especially because young people use it a lot.
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16:37
And so I've heard very veteran game developers say
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16:40
how people interact with games
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16:41
kind of trains kids how they should interact with the world.
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16:44
So even people who tend to be professional players in different games
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3253
16:47
have different psychological profiles
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16:50
because they bias towards certain ways of interacting and seeing the world.
395
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3587
16:53
The same way, I guess, if you trained in something academic, right,
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16:57
you have a different way of viewing it.
397
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16:58
And so if we make games and media in a way
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17:02
that you feel that sort of social impact as well,
399
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3128
17:05
maybe, maybe it opens the door to like, another realm of understanding.
400
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3629
17:09
But, yeah, I agree that like a lot of the systems that we have today
401
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17:14
give you maybe a false sense also of agency
402
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2044
17:16
where like we were talking about the AI systems,
403
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2253
17:18
where you actually feel like you're controlling this thing,
404
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2795
17:21
whereas maybe it's also biasing, you know, and "controlling,"
405
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3420
17:24
having some influence over you as well.
406
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1877
17:26
BSL: So where do you think things are going?
407
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2085
17:28
So there's obviously a huge race among some very,
408
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2336
17:31
very well-resourced organizations over AI, right?
409
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4588
17:35
You know, Microsoft, Google, I mean, are the biggest maybe.
410
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3086
17:40
And they are very quickly going to need to monetize it
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3253
17:44
because this is what those companies are designed to do.
412
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3253
17:47
Like what do you foresee?
413
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2502
17:50
Because I just look at social media as an example.
414
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2961
17:53
I think, at the time when it first came out,
415
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4129
17:57
people were really excited, as a new way to connect with people
416
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3003
18:00
and a way to stay connected to people
417
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1960
18:02
you know, you couldn't otherwise;
418
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2461
18:04
catch up with people you lost contact with,
419
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2210
18:06
that sort of thing.
420
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1627
18:08
And it changed into something else.
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1960
18:12
In large part because of the way it was monetized,
422
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2378
18:14
like going to ads, focus on attention.
423
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2002
18:18
What's the trajectory of AI?
424
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2585
18:22
KG: You know, I'm taking guesses.
425
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2544
18:24
BSL: Yeah, of course, we're all taking guesses,
426
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2252
18:26
I won’t hold you to it, don’t worry.
427
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1752
18:28
KG: I think that the reality is,
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2962
18:31
we were kind of mentioning before about the challenges of scale.
429
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3045
18:34
And when you invest tens of billions of dollars in something,
430
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3587
18:38
you need scale.
431
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1501
18:39
And I think that's one of -- the way that AI is developed
432
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3087
18:43
and specifically even the types of models we're using,
433
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2545
18:45
the economic model of it,
434
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1210
18:46
which is effectively the more compute you have,
435
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2210
18:49
the better models you can create.
436
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1585
18:50
The better models you can create, the more usage you get.
437
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2711
18:53
The more usage you get, the better.
438
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1710
18:55
So it has somewhat of a, honestly, like monopolistic tendency, I think,
439
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3670
18:58
in the way that actually even like the architectures
440
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2503
19:01
and the economy of it works.
441
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1710
19:03
And so
442
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1626
19:04
I think it's almost inevitable that whatever AI systems are produced
443
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3254
19:07
by these large organizations
444
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1376
19:09
will be pushed to scale as quickly as possible.
445
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2752
19:12
And there's some pluses in that where like, you know, sure,
446
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3754
19:15
they're building in feedback loops, people can give their input, it biases it.
447
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3712
19:19
But also at the same time,
448
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1251
19:20
what does it mean when a single model is fit to a billion people, right?
449
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3712
19:24
So that's kind of what I meant about the converging effect
450
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2753
19:27
where, what happens when we are pushed to produce something
451
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2920
19:30
that fits to a billion people?
452
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1627
19:32
There's a lot of diversity in there.
453
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1751
19:33
And so, you know, we create these scaled systems that are fitting with the whole,
454
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4588
19:38
like, trying to fit the whole planet.
455
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1794
19:40
Does that work?
456
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1168
19:41
And so I think what will, you know,
457
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2002
19:43
we're going to go through this phase where like, yeah,
458
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2545
19:46
you're going to have a billion people interacting the same AI.
459
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2961
19:49
And I don't know what the effect of that will be.
460
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2294
19:51
Even the monetization models now are kind of you pay
461
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2460
19:53
to use these kinds of things, which are maybe OK,
462
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2628
19:56
but certainly ads will probably enter the equation.
463
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2420
19:58
Also, what happens when you want attention
464
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2002
20:00
and AI is much better at that than the algorithms
465
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2378
20:03
you even have on YouTube and Instagram.
466
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1877
20:05
And you can start to capture that attention.
467
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2086
20:07
And so I certainly think it's going to be an interesting little bit here now,
468
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3628
20:10
as we see these huge organizations spending tens of billions of dollars
469
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3921
20:14
and the choices that they make to then monetize that,
470
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2961
20:17
and what that means for how AI proliferates.
471
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3420
20:21
I know a lot of the folks in the organizations,
472
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3045
20:24
and their interests have never been in that domain.
473
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2753
20:27
But at the same time, you're beholden, you know,
474
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2252
20:29
to stock market interests and whatever it is, then what happens?
475
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3295
20:32
It shifts it, right?
476
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1418
20:34
We're in a capitalist world.
477
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1376
20:35
And that's kind of like, you know,
478
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1668
20:37
what ultimately will change the incentives.
479
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20:39
So yeah it's interesting.
480
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1585
20:41
I mean I am interested in, coming from your background,
481
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2920
20:44
you have a very different stance on it.
482
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1918
20:46
But, you know, it's all this AI stuff is interesting.
483
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2544
20:48
But, you know, when you think, almost to your first question,
484
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2878
20:51
what makes us human and like as people,
485
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2836
20:54
just technology in general and specifically with AI,
486
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3379
20:58
like where can people find the meaning in their life,
487
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4004
21:02
the values that they find true?
488
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3086
21:05
And how will that change, do you think,
489
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1877
21:07
I guess, with like the advent of these new technologies?
490
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2627
21:10
Or how have you seen it change
491
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2211
21:12
with the technologies we've already seen come to life?
492
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21:16
BSL: This is going to sound like a funny answer.
493
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2253
21:18
I think people are too worked up about technology, personally.
494
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2919
21:21
I mean, you know, we had this conversation.
495
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2210
21:23
I think, you know, people have been using technology since we've been human.
496
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4171
21:28
So paper was a huge invention.
497
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2460
21:30
Talked about this.
498
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1210
21:31
The printing press, huge invention.
499
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1710
21:33
Computer, huge invention.
500
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1460
21:35
Internet, huge invention.
501
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1252
21:36
AI, great, another huge invention.
502
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1835
21:38
And through all of that, I think
503
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2795
21:41
what you see in a lot of the biggest technologies
504
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2294
21:43
is the desire to connect with other human beings.
505
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2419
21:45
I think what fundamentally makes us human is our connection to other human beings,
506
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4129
21:49
our ability to engage with other human beings, and like consciousness
507
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3295
21:53
and all these other things I think are necessary preconditions.
508
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3879
21:57
But really, what makes us human is connections with other humans.
509
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3253
22:00
And that is incredibly complex.
510
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4129
22:04
And I don't think we're close in terms of technology of replicating that.
511
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3713
22:08
I mean, even what you described it's like you have this feeling of like,
512
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3421
22:12
this isn't right, this is off.
513
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1835
22:14
And even if you felt like it was right,
514
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1877
22:16
it still would be off in ways you didn't quite get.
515
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2586
22:18
I don't think we're close.
516
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2502
22:21
Though because it's designed to pull our attention away from other things,
517
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4171
22:25
I think it impedes our ability
518
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5547
22:31
to do what we all kind of want to do,
519
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3920
22:35
which is interact with each other.
520
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2628
22:37
And it might change the way we interact with each other
521
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4505
22:42
in a way that might feel less fulfilling.
522
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3169
22:46
And I think you see some of that in social interactions now.
523
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4463
22:50
Some of that I mean, recently maybe,
524
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3546
22:54
COVID was an issue.
525
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2043
22:56
But, you know, people feeling less comfortable in face-to-face interactions.
526
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4213
23:00
Like people dating,
527
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1293
23:01
there's no serendipity in hanging out and you meet who you meet.
528
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3045
23:04
It's like you're using an algorithm to try to present to you options.
529
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4255
23:09
That's a very different world.
530
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1794
23:11
So even that's prior to AI.
531
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2294
23:14
And I don't know how AI is going to further influence that.
532
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3796
23:17
KG: And I guess just even like the general point,
533
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2669
23:20
how core do you think
534
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2378
23:22
the need for connection is
535
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1501
23:24
in the sense that, you know,
536
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1376
23:25
I've heard some parents say that, through COVID,
537
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2252
23:28
their kids went through a major change, you know,
538
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2544
23:30
these regressions,
539
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1543
23:32
their different habits and these kinds of things
540
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2920
23:35
because they weren't connecting with people.
541
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2085
23:37
And then it's taken years to overcome that.
542
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2169
23:39
So I do also wonder, like, you know,
543
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1918
23:41
whether it's through technology or things like COVID
544
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2461
23:43
or just like circumstances,
545
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1418
23:45
could we lose that need for connection?
546
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2002
23:47
Or even if we need it,
547
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1960
23:49
you know, we might lose the desire for it
548
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1960
23:51
and feel emotional trauma as a result, but still not go for it.
549
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3920
23:55
Like, how core do you think it is?
550
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1627
23:56
And do you think we're safe in that kind of need?
551
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3629
24:01
BSL: So I'm going to give you the most extreme answer,
552
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2545
24:04
which is I think the true one.
553
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1460
24:05
That you will cease to be human
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if you don't have a need for human connection.
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Like I think you will be a physical person,
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but you will literally break down as a human being.
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And this is why in part --
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Social isolation
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or solitary confinement is considered inhumane.
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Because people literally break down,
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you will start to have hallucinations.
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You will break down mentally and physically absent human connection.
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So I don’t think there’s any possibility, in my mind, of losing the need.
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Like, you may get less than you need,
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and that will have negative consequences for you.
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But I'm not worried about people not wanting to be around people.
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KG: Are you worried that, like,
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things like social media or AI or any of these things
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could give you that sense that you're fulfilling that need,
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but not actually fulfilling it?
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It's totally true, right?
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Solitary confinement is a great example because we need it.
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We absolutely lose our sanity as well as, you know, our well-being.
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But maybe we can, you know,
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technology can manufacture the sense that we're fulfilling it.
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And then over time,
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we see these mental health crises evolve as a result?
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BSL: Yeah, that's a good question.
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I think it's unlikely, but I don't know.
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Honestly I don't know.
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I'll talk about meaning for a second.
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And I think of that as fundamentally tied
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to our need for connection to other people.
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I think sometimes we confuse, for example, our need for meaning,
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with a desire for personal achievement.
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That we chase personal achievement
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and what we're trying to do is generate meaning.
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So I think we can be confused
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and we can have those needs displaced into less productive routes.
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But I don't think it's going away.
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But, you know, I don't know that it's the healthiest.
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KG: No, I'm totally aligned.
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Thank you, Brian, that was an awesome conversation.
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BSL: It was great to talk to you.
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Really fantastic and super informative. Thank you.
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