Michael Levin: The electrical blueprints that orchestrate life | TED

Prevodilac: Milenka Okuka Lektor: Ivana Korom

Kris Anderson: Majk, dobro došao.

Dobro je videti te. Uzbuđen sam zbog ovog razgovora.

Majkl Levin: Mnogo ti hvala. Srećan sam što sam tu.

KA: Većina nas ima sledeći biološki mentalni model

Chris Anderson: Mike, welcome.

It's good to see you. I'm excited for this conversation.

da je DNK svojstvo svih živih bića,

Michael Levin: Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here.

da se radi o nekakvom softveru koji gradi hardver našeg tela.

CA: So, most of us have this mental model in biology

that DNA is a property of every living thing,

Tako mnogi od nas razmišljaju o ovome.

Taj model ostavlja suviše suštinskih tajni.

that it is kind of the software that builds the hardware of our body.

Možeš li da podeliš sa nama neke od tih tajni,

That's how a lot of us think about this.

kao i kakve veze punoglavci imaju s tim?

That model leaves too many deep mysteries.

ML: Svakako. Da.

Can you share with us some of those mysteries

Želeo bih da vam pružim drugi pogled na ovaj problem.

DNK, između ostalog, specifikuje hardver svake ćelije.

and also what tadpoles have to do with it?

ML: Sure. Yeah.

Dakle, DNK saopštava svakoj ćeliji koje bi proteine trebalo da ima.

I'd like to give you another perspective on this problem.

One of the things that DNA does is specify the hardware of each cell.

Stoga, kada imate punoglavce, na primer,

vidite baš ono

So the DNA tells every cell what proteins it's supposed to have.

što većina ljudi smatra nekakvim progresivnim odmotavanjem genoma.

And so when you have tadpoles, for example,

Naročiti geni se uključuju i isključuju,

you see the kind of thing

i punoglavac, kako postaje žaba, mora nanovo da sklopi lice.

that most people think is sort of a progressive unrolling of the genome.

Oči, nozdrve, vilica - sve mora da se pomeri.

Specific genes turn on and off,

A način da se o tome misli je bio, pa dobro,

and a tadpole, as it becomes a frog,

imate nekakav urođen skup pokreta

has to rearrange its face.

So the eyes, the nostrils, the jaws -- everything has to move.

gde se sve ove stvari kreću okolo i daju vam žabu.

And one way to think about it used to be that, well,

Zapravo, pre nekoliko godina, otkrili smo prilično neverovatnu pojavu,

you have a sort of hardwired set of movements

a to je, ako napravite takozvane Pikaso žabe -

where all of these things move around and then you get your frog.

radi se o punoglavcima kod kojih vilica može da bude skroz s profila,

But actually, a few years ago, we found a pretty amazing phenomenon,

oči su ovde gore, nozdrve su pomerene,

which is that if you make so-called "Picasso frogs" --

dakle, sve je izmešteno -

ovi punoglavci izrastu u uglavnom normalna žablja lica.

these are tadpoles where the jaws might be off to the side,

Sad, ovo je neverovatno

the eyes are up here, the nostrils are moved,

jer svi organi započinju na abnormalnim mestima,

so everything is shifted --

these tadpoles make largely normal frog faces.

ipak, i dalje na kraju daju prilično dobra žablja lica.

Now, this is amazing,

Ispostavlja se da ovaj sistem,

because all of the organs start off in abnormal positions,

poput mnogih živih sistema,

nema urođen skup pokreta,

and yet they still end up making a pretty good frog face.

već zapravo radi na umanjivanju greške između onoga što se dešava sada

And so what it turns out is that this system,

like many living systems,

i onoga za šta zna da je ispravna konfiguracija žabljeg lica.

is not a hardwired set of movements,

Ovaj vid donošenja odluke,

but actually works to reduce the error between what's going on now

koji podrazumeva fleksibilne odgovore na nove okolnosti,

and what it knows is a correct frog face configuration.

u drugim kontekstima nazivali bismo inteligencijom.

Trenutno ne treba samo da razumemo mehanizme

This kind of decision-making

that involves flexible responses to new circumstances,

po kojima ove ćelije izvode svoje pokrete

in other contexts, we would call this intelligence.

i ispoljavanje gena itd,

već zaista moramo da razumemo tok informacija:

And so what we need to understand now is not only the mechanisms

kako ove ćelije međusobno sarađuju

by which these cells execute their movements

kako bi izgradile nešto veliko i kako bi prestale da grade

and gene expression and so on,

but we really have to understand the information flow:

kada je ta naročita struktura gotova?

How do these cells cooperate with each other

A ovi vidovi proračuna, ne samo mehanizmi,

to build something large and to stop building

već proračuni anatomske kontrole,

when that specific structure is created?

budućnost su biologije.

KA: Pretpostavljam da je tradicionalni model

And these kinds of computations, not just the mechanisms,

da ćelije nekako šalju biohemijske signale jedna drugoj

but the computations of anatomical control,

are the future of biology.

koji omogućavaju da se taj razvoj desi na pametan način.

CA: And so I guess the traditional model

is that somehow cells are sending biochemical signals to each other

Ti, ipak, smatraš da je još nešto na delu.

O čemu se radi?

that allow that development to happen the smart way.

ML: Ćelije svakako komuniciraju biohemijski i putem fizičkih sila,

ali još nešto se dešava što je veoma interesantno,

But you think there is something else at work.

What is that?

a to se u suštini naziva bioelektricitetom,

ML: Well, cells certainly do communicate biochemically and via physical forces,

ne-neuronskim bioelektricitetom.

but there's something else going on that's extremely interesting,

Ispostavlja se da sve ćelije -

ne samo nervi, već sve ćelije u vašem telu -

and it's basically called bioelectricity,

međusobno komuniciraju upotrebom električnih signala.

A ono što vidite ovde je tajm-laps snimak.

non-neural bioelectricity.

So it turns out that all cells --

Prvi put,

not just nerves, but all cells in your body --

trenutno smo u mogućnosti da prisluškujemo sve električne razgovore

communicate with each other using electrical signals.

koje ćelije međusobno vode.

And what you're seeing here is a time-lapse video.

Razmišljajte o ovome.

For the first time,

Upravo gledamo -

Ovo je embrion žabe u začetku.

we are now able to eavesdrop on all of the electrical conversations

Ovo je nakon oko osam do 10 sati razvoja.

that the cells are having with each other.

A boje vam pokazuju stvarna električna stanja

So think about this.

We're now watching --

koja vam omogućuju da vidite sav električni softver

This is an early frog embryo.

This is about eight hours to 10 hours of development.

koji radi na ćelijskom hardveru definisanom genomom.

And the colors are showing you actual electrical states

Dakle, ove ćelije u suštini razgovaraju jedna s drugom

that allow you to see all of the electrical software

ko će da bude glava, ko će da bude rep,

that's running on the genome-defined cellular hardware.

ko će da bude levo i desno i sačinjava oči i mozak, itd.

And so these cells are basically communicating with each other

Dakle, ovaj softver

omogućava ovim živim sistemima da ostvare specifične ciljeve,

who is going to be head, who is going to be tail,

who is going to be left and right and make eyes and brain and so on.

poput izgradnje embriona

ili regeneracije uda kod životinja koje to mogu,

And so it is this software

that allows these living systems to achieve specific goals,

a sposobnost da vidimo ove električne razgovore

goals such as building an embryo

or regenerating a limb for animals that do this,

nam pruža neke prilično izvanredne mogućnosti

and the ability to see these electrical conversations

da ciljamo i nanovo ispisujemo ciljeve prema kojima

se ovi sistemi upravljaju.

KA: U redu. To je prilično radikalno.

gives us some really remarkable opportunities

Sačekaj da vidim da li sam razumeo.

to target or to rewrite the goals towards which

Kažeš da kada organizam počne da se razvija,

these living systems are operating.

čim se ćelija podeli,

CA: OK, so this is pretty radical.

električni signali se razmenjuju između njih.

Let me see if I understand this.

What you're saying is that when an organism starts to develop,

Međutim, kad stignemo do stotinu, nekoliko stotina ćelija,

as soon as a cell divides,

electrical signals are shared between them.

nekako ovi signali na kraju tvore nešto u suštini nalik kompjuterskom programu,

But as you get to, what, a hundred, a few hundred cells,

programu koji nekako uključuje sve potrebne informacije

that somehow these signals end up forming essentially like a computer program,

kako bi saopštio organizmu

njegovu sudbinu?

a program that somehow includes all the information needed

Je li ovo razmišljanje ispravno?

ML: Da, poprilično.

U suštini, dešava se da ove ćelije,

to tell that organism

obrazujući električne mreže nalik mrežama u mozgu,

what its destiny is?

Is that the right way to think about it?

one obrazuju električne mreže,

ML: Yes, quite.

Basically, what happens is that these cells,

a ove mreže obrađuju informacije uključujući šablonsku memoriju.

by forming electrical networks much like networks in the brain,

One uključuju prikaz anatomskih struktura velikih razmera

they form electrical networks,

and these networks process information including pattern memories.

za smeštanje različitih organa,

koje ćemo različite ose kod životinje - napred i nazad, glava i rep -

They include representation of large-scale anatomical structures

da imamo,

a ovo je bukvalno sadržano u električnim kolima

where various organs will go,

duž velikih tkiva

what the different axes of the animal -- front and back, head and tail --

na isti način na koji mozgovi pohranjuju druge vidove pamćenja i učenja.

are going to be,

and these are literally held in the electrical circuits

KA: Da li razmišljam ispravno?

across large tissues

in the same way that brains hold other kinds of memories and learning.

Jer se ovo čini ogromnim preokretom.

Mislim, kad sam prvi put nabavio kompjuter,

bio sam očaran ljudima koji su znali tzv. mašinsko programiranje,

CA: So is this the right way to think about it?

Because this seems to be such a big shift.

poput direktnog programiranja pojedinačnih bitova kompjutera.

I mean, when I first got a computer,

I was in awe of the people who could do so-called "machine code,"

To je bilo nemoguće većini smrtnika.

Da bismo mogli da kontrolišemo kompjuter,

morali smo da programiramo nekim jezikom,

like the direct programming of individual bits in the computer.

a to je bio daleko jednostavniji način da se dese opštije stvari.

That was impossible for most mortals.

To have a chance of controlling that computer,

you'd have to program in a language,

I ako te dobro razumem,

which was a vastly simpler way of making big-picture things happen.

ti kažeš da se trenutno biologija uglavnom odvija

pokušavajući ekvivalent programiranja mašinskim jezikom,

razumevajući biohemijske signale između pojedinačnih ćelija,

And if I understand you right,

what you're saying is that most of biology today has sort of taken place

kad, čekaj malo, sveca mu, imamo ovaj jezik,

trying to do the equivalent of machine code programming,

ovaj električni jezik, koji, ako bismo ga razumeli,

of understanding the biochemical signals between individual cells,

when, wait a sec, holy crap, there's this language going on,

pružio bi nam skroz drugačiji skup razumevanja

this electrical language, which, if you could understand that,

o tome kako se organizmi razvijaju.

Da li je ova metafora u suštini tačna?

ML: Da, baš tako.

that would give us a completely different set of insights

Ako se setimo kako je programiranje rađeno tokom ’40-ih,

into how organisms are developing.

da biste naveli kompjuter da uradi nešto drugačije,

Is that metaphor basically right?

morali ste fizički da ispomerate žice.

ML: Yeah, this is exactly right.

So if you think about the way programming was done in the '40s,

Pa ste morali da uđete i nanovo povežete hardver.

Morali ste direktno da interagujete sa hardverom,

in order to get your computer to do something different,

a sve vaše strategije manipulacije tom mašinom

you would physically have to shift the wires around.

bi bile na nivou hardvera.

So you'd have to go in there and rewire the hardware.

A razlog što trenutno imamo ovu izvanrednu tehnološku revoluciju,

You'd have to interact with the hardware directly,

informacijske nauke itd,

and all of your strategies for manipulating that machine

je što je nauka o kompjuterima preusmerila pažnju sa hardvera

would be at the level of the hardware.

And the reason we have this now amazing technology revolution,

na razumevanje da, ako vam je hardver dovoljno dobar -

information sciences and so on,

a ja vam kažem da je biološki hardver apsolutno dovoljno dobar -

is because computer science moved from a focus on the hardware

onda možete da interagujete sa sistemom, ne lupkajući i menjajući hardver,

on to understanding that if your hardware is good enough --

and I'm going to tell you that biological hardware is absolutely good enough --

već zapravo, možete se povući nazad i dati mu stimulans ili unos

then you can interact with your system not by tweaking or rewiring the hardware,

na način kako biste to uradili sa rekonfigurišućim kompjuterom

navodeći ćelijsku mrežu da uradi nešto sasvim suprotno

but actually, you can take a step back and give it stimuli or inputs

the way that you would give to a reprogrammable computer

onome što bi inače uradila.

Stoga nam vidljivost ovih biohemijskih signala

and cause the cellular network to do something completely different

pruža direktnu ulaznu tačku u softver

than it would otherwise have done.

koji upravlja anatomijom velikih razmera,

So the ability to see these bioelectrical signals

a to je potpuno različit pristup medicini

is giving us an entry point directly into the software

od ponovnog povezivanja specifičnih prolaza unutar svake ćelije.

that guides large-scale anatomy,

KA: Dakle, na razne načine, tvoj rad je neverovatan

which is a very different approach to medicine

jer ti počinješ da dešifruješ kôd ovih električnih signala,

than to rewiring specific pathways inside of every cell.

i imaš sjajnu demonstraciju ovoga

CA: And so in many ways, this is the amazingness of your work

kod ovih pljosnatih crva.

Kaži nam šta se ovde dešava.

is that you're starting to crack the code of these electrical signals,

ML: Ovo je biće poznato kao planarija.

and you've got an amazing demonstration of this

Radi se o pljosnatim crvima.

in these flatworms.

Oni su zapravo prilično složena bića.

Tell us what's going on here.

Imaju pravi mozak, mnoštvo različitih organa, itd.

ML: So this is a creature known as a planarian.

A neverovatna stvar kod ovih planarija

They're flatworms.

je da su veoma, veoma regenerativne.

They're actually quite a complex creature.

Pa, ako je isečeta na komadiće - zapravo, na preko 200 komadića -

They have a true brain, lots of different organs and so on.

And the amazing thing about these planaria

svaki delić će dograditi tačno šta je neophodno

is that they are highly, highly regenerative.

So if you cut it into pieces -- in fact, over 200 pieces --

da se sačini savršen crvić.

Razmislite o tome.

Radi se o sistemu gde svaki delić

every piece will rebuild exactly what's needed

tačno zna kako prava planarija izgleda

i gradi odgovarajuće organe na odgovrajućim mestima i potom staje.

to make a perfect little worm.

So think about that.

This is a system where every single piece

A to je nešto najneverovatnije kod regeneracije.

knows exactly what a correct planarian looks like

Mi smo otkrili da ako je isečemo na tri dela

and builds the right organs in the right places and then stops.

i amputiramo glavu i rep, i samo uzmemo ovaj središnji fragment,

And that's one of the most amazing things about regeneration.

a to vidite ovde,

So what we discovered is that if you cut it into three pieces

iznenađujuće, imamo električni gradijent, od glave do repa, koji nastaje

and amputate the head and the tail and you just take this middle fragment,

i koji kaže tom delu gde idu glava i rep,

which is what you see here,

i, zapravo, koliko glava ili repova bi trebalo da ima.

amazingly, there is an electrical gradient, head to tail, that's generated

Mi smo naučili da manipulišemo ovim električnim gradijentom,

that tells the piece where the heads and the tails go

a važna stvar je da ne upotrebljavamo elektricitet.

and in fact, how many heads or tails you're supposed to have.

Umesto toga, uključujemo i isključujemo malene tranzistore -

So what we learned to do is to manipulate this electrical gradient,

u stvari to je kanal jonskih proteina -

and the important thing is that we don't apply electricity.

koji svaka ćelija izvorno koristi da bi podesila ovo električno stanje.

What we do instead was we turned on and off the little transistors --

Sada imamo načine da ih uključimo i isključimo,

they're actual ion channel proteins --

a kada to radite, nešto što možete

je da promenite strujno kolo u stanje koje kaže, ne, gradi dve glave,

that every cell natively uses to set up this electrical state.

So now we have ways to turn them on and off,

ili, zapravo, gradi bez glave.

and when you do this, one of the things you can do

A ovde vidite stvarne crve koji imaju dve glave ili nijednu

is you can shift that circuit to a state that says no, build two heads,

koji su rezultat ovoga

jer je električna mapa ono što ćelije koriste

or in fact, build no heads.

da bi odlučile šta da rade.

And what you're seeing here are real worms that have either two or no heads

A ovde vidite žive dvoglave crve.

that result from this,

Kada smo stvorili sve ovo, obavili smo skroz blesav eksperiment.

because that electrical map is what the cells are using

to decide what to do.

Uzmete jedan od ovih dvoglavih crva i otkinete obe glave,

And so what you're seeing here are live two-headed worms.

i ostavite samo normalni središnji fragment.

And, having generated these, we did a completely crazy experiment.

Sad, imajte na umu, ove životinje nisu genomski modifikovane.

You take one of these two-headed worms, and you chop off both heads,

Apsolutno ništa u vezi s njihovim genomima nije drugačije.

and you leave just the normal middle fragment.

Njihov genomski niz je potpuno prirodan.

Now keep in mind, these animals have not been genomically edited.

Dakle, amputirate glave, imate fin, normalan fragment,

There's absolutely nothing different about their genomes.

a onda pitate: u običnoj vodi, šta će da se desi?

Their genome sequence is completely wild type.

I, naravno, standardna paradigma bi glasila:

So you amputate the heads, you've got a nice normal fragment,

ako ste se rešili suvišnog ektopičnog tkiva,

genom nije redigovan, dakle, trebalo bi da dobijemo skroz normalnog crva.

and then you ask: In plain water, what is it going to do?

And, of course, the standard paradigm would say,

A neverovatno je da se to ne dešava.

well, if you've gotten rid of this ectopic extra tissue,

Ovi crvi, kada se ponovo i ponovo iseku, u budućnosti, u običnoj vodi,

the genome is not edited so it should make a perfectly normal worm.

And the amazing thing is that it is not what happens.

nastavljaju da se regenerišu kao dvoglavi.

These worms, when cut again and again, in the future, in plain water,

Razmišljajte o ovome.

Šablonska memorija po kojoj se ove životinje regenerišu nakon oštećenja

they continue to regenerate as two-headed.

je trajno izmenjena.

Think about this.

I zapravo, sada možemo da je vratimo na staro i da ih vratimo na jednoglave

The pattern memory to which these animals will regenerate after damage

bez bilo kakve izmene genoma.

Ovo ovde vam govori da informaciona struktura

has been permanently rewritten.

And in fact, we can now write it back and send them back to being one-headed

koja saopštava ovim crvima koliko glava bi trebalo da imaju

without any genomic editing.

nije direktno u genomu.

Već je u dodatnom bioelektričnom sloju.

So this right here is telling you that the information structure

Verovatno je i štošta drugo.

that tells these worms how many heads they're supposed to have

I mi sada imamo sposobnost da to menjamo.

is not directly in the genome.

A to je, naravno, osnovna definicija memorije.

It is in this additional bioelectric layer.

Mora da bude stabilna, dugoročno stabilna i mora da bude podložna redigovanju.

Probably many other things are as well.

And we now have the ability to rewrite it.

A mi trenutno počinjemo da dešifrujemo ovaj morfogenetički kôd

And that, of course, is the key definition of memory.

kako bismo ispitali kako ova tkiva skladište uputstva za rad

It has to be stable, long-term stable, and it has to be rewritable.

And we are now beginning to crack this morphogenetic code

i kako mi možemo da uđemo i da izmenimo uputstva radi novih ishoda.

to ask how is it that these tissues store a map of what to do

KA: Mislim, to se čini kao neverovatno ubedljiv dokaz

and how we can go in and rewrite that map to new outcomes.

da DNK nije jedina koja kontroliše stvarni krajnji oblik

CA: I mean, that seems incredibly compelling evidence

ovih organizama,

that DNA is just not controlling the actual final shape

da imamo nešto potpuno drugo što se dešava

i, čoveče, dešifrovanje tog koda

do čega bi još dovelo.

of these organisms,

Usput, samo posmatrajući ove.

that there's this whole other thing going on,

Kako izgleda život dvoglavog pljosnatog crva?

and, boy, if you could crack that code,

Mislim, čini se kao nagodba.

what else could that lead to.

Dobre vesti su da imaju neverovatan trodimenzionalan pogled na svet,

By the way, just looking at these ones.

What is life like for a two-headed flatworm?

ali loše vesti su da moraju da kake kroz oba svoja usta?

I mean, it seems like it's kind of a trade-off.

The good news is you have this amazing three-dimensional view of the world,

ML: Crvi imaju malene tube koje se nazivaju ždrelom,

but the bad news is you have to poop through both of your mouths?

a tube su otprilike na sredini tela,

i kroz njih izbacuju izmet.

ML: So, the worms have these little tubes called pharynxes,

Ove životninje su skroz održive.

U potpunosti su srećne, verujem.

and the tubes are sort of in the middle of the body,

Problem je, međutim,

što dve glave ne sarađuju tako dobro,

and they excrete through that.

These animals are perfectly viable.

pa oni ne jedu tako dobro.

They're completely happy, I think.

Ako, pak, možete rukom da ih hranite,

živeće zauvek,

The problem, however,

i, zapravo, trebalo bi da znate da su ovi crvi praktično besmrtni.

is that the two heads don't cooperate all that well,

Ovi crvi jer su tako izrazito regenrativni,

and so they don't really eat very well.

But if you manage to feed them by hand,

nemaju starosno ograničenje,

they will go on forever,

i saopštavaju nam da ako dešifrujemo njihovu tajnu regeneracije,

and in fact, you should know these worms are basically immortal.

So these worms, because they are so highly regenerative,

koja nije samo razvoj novih ćelija, već i znanje kada se zaustaviti -

they have no age limit,

vidite, ovo je apsolutno ključno -

and they're telling us that if we crack this secret of regeneration,

ako u kontinuitetu možete da ispoljavate ovu suštinsku kontrolu

which is not only growing new cells but knowing when to stop --

nad trodimenzionalnim strukturama koje ćelije pokušavaju da postignu,

you see, this is absolutely crucial --

mogli biste da pobedite starost kao i traumatske povrede

if you can continue to exert this really profound control

i slične stvari.

Jedna stvar koju treba imati na umu je da mogućnost izmene

over the three-dimensional structures that the cells are working towards,

telesnih anatomskih struktura velikih razmera

you could defeat aging as well as traumatic injury

nije tek uvrnuti trik planarija.

and things like this.

Nije nešto što samo deluje kod pljosnatih crva.

So one thing to keep in mind is that this ability to rewrite

the large-scale anatomical structure of the body

Ovde vidite punoglavca s okom i crevom,

is not just a weird planarian trick.

a mi smo uključili veoma specifičan jonski kanal.

It's not just something that works in flatworms.

U suštini smo prosto manipulisali ovim malenim električnim tranzistorima

What you're seeing here is a tadpole with an eye and a gut,

and what we've done is turned on a very specific ion channel.

koji su untar ćelija,

i nametnuli smo stanje nekim od ovih crevnih ćelija

So we basically just manipulated these little electrical transistors

koje je obično povezano sa izgradnjom oka.

that are inside of cells,

I kao rezultat, ćelije će sagraditi oko.

and we've imposed a state on some of these gut cells

Ove oči su potpune.

Imaju optički nerv, sočivo, mrežnjaču,

that's normally associated with building an eye.

sve ono što bi oko trebalo da ima.

And as a result, what the cells do is they build an eye.

Usput, mogu da vide na ove oči.

These eyes are complete.

They have optic nerve, lens, retina,

A ovde vidite

da pokrećući subrutine za izgradnju oka

all the same stuff that an eye is supposed to have.

u fiziološkom softveru tela,

They can see, by the way, out of these eyes.

lako mu možete saopštiti da izgradi složen organ.

And what you're seeing here

is that by triggering eye-building subroutines

A ovo je važno za našu biomedicinu

in the physiological software of the body,

jer ne znamo kako da do sitnih detalja upravljamo izgradnjom oka.

you can very easily tell it to build a complex organ.

Smatram da će poprilično potrajati

pre nego što budemo u stanju da od nule sagradimo oči, ruke itd.

And this is important for our biomedicine,

because we don't know how to micromanage the construction of an eye.

Međutim, ne moramo jer telo već zna kako da to uradi

I think it's going to be a really long time

i imamo ove subrutine koje mogu da se aktiviraju

before we can really bottom-up build things like eyes or hands and so on.

putem specifičnih električnih nacrta koje možemo da otkrijemo.

But we don't need to, because the body already knows how to do it,

A to nazivamo „dešifrovanjem biolektričnog koda”.

and there are these subroutines that can be triggered

Možemo da pravimo oči, dodatne udove.

by specific electrical patterns that we can find.

Ovo je jedan od naših punoglavaca s pet nogu.

Možemo da dodamo još jedno srce.

And this is what we call "cracking the bioelectric code."

Počinjemo da dešifrujemo kôd kako bismo razumeli gde su subrutine

We can make eyes. We can make extra limbs.

u ovom softveru

Here's one of our five-legged tadpoles.

koje možemo da aktiviramo i gradimo ove složene organe

We can make extra hearts.

mnogo pre nego što zapravo naučimo da detaljno upravljamo procesom

We're starting to crack the code to understand where are the subroutines

na ćelijskom nivou.

in this software

KA: Kada si počeo da izučavaš ovaj električni sloj

that we can trigger and build these complex organs

long before we actually know how to micromanage the process

i šta on sve može,

uspeo si da stvoriš -

at the cellular level.

CA: So as you've started to get to learn this electrical layer

je li u redu reći skoro nov, novi oblik života

nazvan ksenobot?

and what it can do,

Pričaj mi o ksenobotima.

you've been able to create --

ML: Tako je.

Ako razmišljaš o ovome, ovo vodi do zaista čudnog predviđanja.

is it fair to say it's almost like a new, a novel life-form,

called a xenobot?

Ako su ćelije uistinu voljne da grade na osnovu specifične mape,

Talk to me about xenobots.

ML: Right.

So if you think about this, this leads to a really strange prediction.

mogli bismo uzeti genetski neizmenjene ćelije,

a ovde vidite ćelije uzete iz tela žabe.

If the cells are really willing to build towards a specific map,

Spojile su se tako da to od njih zahteva da ponovo zamisle svoju multicelularnost.

we could take genetically unaltered cells,

and what you're seeing here is cells taken out of a frog body.

A ovde vidite

da kada se oslobode od ostatka tela životinje,

They've coalesced in a way that asks them to re-envision their multicellularity.

grade ova sićušna nova tela koja, u smislu ponašanja,

And what you see here

vidite da mogu da se kreću, da jure po lavirintu.

is that when liberated from the rest of the body of the animal,

Potpuno su različita od žaba ili punoglavaca.

they make these tiny little novel bodies that are, in terms of behavior,

Kada upitamo žablje ćelije da osmisle kakvo telo žele da naprave,

you can see they can move, they can run a maze.

They are completely different from frogs or tadpoles.

one urade nešto krajnje interesantno.

Frog cells, when asked to re-envision what kind of body they want to make,

Koriste hardver koji im obezbeđuje njihova genetika,

na primer, ove malene dlakice, ove malene cilije

do something incredibly interesting.

koje se obično koriste za preraspodelu sluzi na spoljašnjosti žabe,

They use the hardware that their genetics gives them,

one su genetski određene.

for example, these little hairs, these little cilia

Međutim, ova bića,

jer su im ćelije u stanju da formiraju nove vrste tela,

that are normally used to redistribute mucus on the outside of a frog,

those are genetically specified.

su otkrila kako da koriste ove malene cilije

But what these creatures did,

da umesto toga veslaju uzvodno i ona su sad pokretna.

because the cells are able to form novel kinds of bodies,

Dakle, ne samo da mogu da se kreću, već mogu, a ovde vidite

they have figured out how to use these little cilia

to instead row against the water, and now have locomotion.

da se ove ćelije spajaju.

Sada započinju razgovore o tome šta će da urade.

So not only can they move around, but they can, and here what you're seeing,

Ovde vidite svetlucanje, tj. razmenu informacija.

is that these cells are coalescing together.

Imajte na umu, ovo je samo koža.

Now they're starting to have conversations about what they are going to do.

Nema nervnog sistema. Nema mozga. Ovo je samo koža.

You can see here the flashes are these exchanges of information.

Ovo je koža koja je naučila da pravi novo telo,

Keep in mind, this is just skin.

da istražuje okolinu i da se kreće naokolo.

There is no nervous system. There is no brain. This is just skin.

I imaju spontana ponašanja.

This is skin that has learned to make a new body

Ovde vidite kako pliva niz lavirint.

U ovoj tački, odlučuje da se okrene i vrati odakle je krenula.

and to explore its environment and move around.

And they have spontaneous behaviors.

Dakle, ima sopstveno ponašanje, i radi se o izvanrednom modelu sistema

You can see here where it's swimming down this maze.

iz više razloga.

At this point, it decides to turn around and go back where it came from.

Pre svega, pokazuje nam neverovatnu plastičnost ćelija

So it has its own behavior, and this is a remarkable model system

koje su genetski neizmenjene.

Ovde nema genetske redakcije.

for several reasons.

Ovo su ćelije koje su zaista sklone gradnji nekakvog funkcionalnog tela.

First of all, it shows us the amazing plasticity of cells

that are genetically wild type.

Druga stvar,

There is no genetic editing here.

a ovo smo radili u saradnji sa Džoš Bongardovom laboratorijom na UVM,

These are cells that are really prone to making some sort of functional body.

radili su modele struktura ovih stvari i evoluirali ih u virtuelnom svetu.

The second thing,

and this was done in collaboration with Josh Bongard's lab at UVM,

Ovo je bukvlano - na kompjuteru, modelirali su ga na kompjuteru.

they modeled the structure of these things and evolved it in a virtual world.

Ovo je bukvalno jedini organizam koji mi je poznat na našoj planeti

čija evolucija se nije desila u biosferi zemlje,

So this is literally -- on a computer, they modeled it on a computer.

već unutar kompjutera.

So this is literally the only organism that I know of on the face of this planet

Pojedinačne ćelije imaju evolutivnu istoriju,

whose evolution took place not in the biosphere of the earth

ali ovaj organizam nikad pre nije postojao.

Evoluirao je u ovom virtuelnom svetu,

but inside a computer.

a mi smo se onda zaputili i napravili ga u laboratoriji,

So the individual cells have an evolutionary history,

i vidite ovu izvanrednu plastičnost.

but this organism has never existed before.

Ovo nije samo za izgradnju korisnih mašina.

It was evolved in this virtual world,

and then we went ahead and made it in the lab,

Možete da zamislite kako ih programiramo da izađu u spoljni svet

and you can see this amazing plasticity.

i čiste toksine i prečišćavaju,

This is not only for making useful machines.

ili možete da ih zamislite napravljene od ljudskih ćelija

koje bi se kretale kroz vaše telo i sakupljale ćelije raka

You can imagine now programming these to go out into the environment

ili bi lečile artritične zglobove,

and collect toxins and cleanup,

or you could imagine ones made out of human cells

dostavljale proregenerativna jedinjenja,

razne stvari.

that would go through your body and collect cancer cells

Ne radi se samo o korisnim primenama - ovo je izvanredno igralište

or reshape arthritic joints,

za učenje komunikacije morfogenetičkih signala sa ćelijskim kolektivom.

deliver pro-regenerative compounds,

all kinds of things.

But not only these useful applications -- this is an amazing sandbox

Čim ovo dešifrujemo, čim razumemo kako ove ćelije odlučuju šta da rade,

for learning to communicate morphogenetic signals to cell collectives.

onda ćemo, naravno, naučiti da menjamo tu informaciju,

So once we crack this, once we understand how these cells decide what to do,

sledeći korak su velika unapređenja u regenerativnoj medicini

and then we're going to, of course, learn to rewrite that information,

jer ćemo tada biti u stanju da saopštimo ćelijama da grade zdrave organe.

the next steps are great improvements in regenerative medicine,

Pa je ovo trenutno uistinu ključna šansa

da naučimo da komuniciramo sa grupama ćelija,

because we will then be able to tell cells to build healthy organs.

ne da do detalja upravljamo njima, ne da forsiramo hardver,

And so this is now a really critical opportunity

već da komuniciramo i menjamo ciljeve koje ove ćelije pokušavaju da ostvare.

to learn to communicate with cell groups,

KA: Radi se o stvarima koje raspamećuju.

not to micromanage them, not to force the hardware,

Za kraj, Majk, reci nam samo još jednu priču

to communicate and rewrite the goals that these cells are trying to accomplish.

o medicini koja bi mogla da nastane

dok ti razvijaš razumevanje

CA: Well, it's mind-boggling stuff.

Finally, Mike, give us just one other story

o tome kako ovaj bioelektrični sloj deluje.

about medicine that might be to come

ML: Da, ovo je izuzetno uzbudljivo jer, ako razmisliš o tome,

as you develop this understanding

većina problema u biomedicini -

of how this bioelectric layer works.

urođeni defekti, degenerativne bolesti, starenje, traumatske povrede, čak i rak -

ML: Yeah, this is incredibly exciting because, if you think about it,

sve se svode na jedno:

most of the problems of biomedicine --

ćelije ne grade što biste želeli da grade.

birth defects, degenerative disease, aging, traumatic injury, even cancer --

Stoga, ako bismo razumeli kako da komuniciramo sa ovim kolektivima

i da zaista menjamo njihove ciljne morfologije,

all boil down to one thing:

cells are not building what you would like them to build.

And so if we understood how to communicate with these collectives

bili bismo u stanju da normalizujemo tumore,

da popravljamo urođene defekte,

and really rewrite their target morphologies,

da pokrećemo regeneraciju udova i drugih organa,

a ovo smo sve već uradili na žabljim modelima.

we would be able to normalize tumors,

Pa je sad sledeći zaista uzbudljiv korak

we would be able to repair birth defects,

induce regeneration of limbs and other organs,

da ovo prenesemo na ćelije sisara

and these are things we have already done in frog models.

i da ovo uistinu pretvorimo u sledeću generaciju regenerativne medicine

And so now the next really exciting step

gde učimo da se bavimo svim ovim biomedicinskim potrebama

is to take this into mammalian cells

and to really turn this into the next generation of regenerative medicine

komunicirajući sa ćelijskim kolektivima

i menjajući njihovu bioelektričnu šablonsku memoriju.

where we learn to address all of these biomedical needs

I posljednje što bih želeo da kažem je da se važnost ove oblasti

by communicating with the cell collectives

ne ogleda samo u biomedicini.

and rewriting their bioelectric pattern memories.

Vidite, kao što sam rekao na početku,

ova sposobnost ćelija u novim sredinama

And the final thing I'd like to say is that the importance of this field

da grade svakakve stvari pored onog što im genom saopštava

is not only for biomedicine.

You see, this, as I started out by saying,

je primer inteligencije,

this ability of cells in novel environments

a biologija je inteligentno rešavala probleme

to build all kinds of things besides what their genome tells them

još mnogo pre pojave mozgova.

Pa su ovo i počeci nove inspiracije za mašinsko učenje

is an example of intelligence,

and biology has been intelligently solving problems

koje oponaša veštačku inteligenciju telesnih ćelija, ne samo mozgova,

long before brains came on the scene.

And so this is also the beginnings of a new inspiration for machine learning

za primene u kompjuterskoj inteligenciji.

that mimics the artificial intelligence of body cells, not just brains,

KA: Majk Levin, hvala ti za tvoj izuzetan rad

for applications in computer intelligence.

i što si ga tako ubedljivo podelio sa nama.

Hvala ti.

ML: Mnogo vam hvala. Hvala, Kris.

CA: Mike Levin, thank you for your extraordinary work

and for sharing it so compellingly with us.

Thank you.

ML: Thank you so much. Thank you, Chris.