How Modern Audiences Can Talk about Aging Art | Margaret Hall | TED

翻译人员: Yonghan Zhao 校对人员: Yip Yan Yeung

Hello, everyone.

大家好，

As he said, my name is Margaret Hall.

正如大家看到的， 我叫玛格丽特·霍尔（Margaret Hall）

I'm a musical theater historian, writer and teacher,

我是一名音乐剧历史学家、 作家以及老师。

and I'm here to talk to you about how we talk about art.

今天我来跟大家谈谈如何谈论艺术。

Theater is, at its core, a collaborative art form.

戏剧的核心是一种合作的艺术形式，

It's a way for human beings to communicate with one another.

这是人类彼此沟通的一种方式。

Why then do we struggle to communicate about the art form itself?

那为什么我们难以讨论艺术形式本身呢？

There is one massive foundation-shifting question

在美国戏剧领域， 有一个极其重要的问题被许多人回避。

that many people working in the American theater avoid,

and that question is: How do we approach aging art?

那就是：我们该如何 看待老化的艺术形式？

The American musical is a relatively young art form.

美国音乐剧是一个相对年轻的艺术形式，

If we use 1866's "The Black Crook"

如果我们以 1866 年的 《黑鸦》为起点，

as our marker,

then the art form is only 156 years old.

那么这种艺术形式仅有 156 年的历史。

Now that feels like a very old age to us

这对我们来说感觉已经很久了，

because no human being is going to reach that age naturally.

因为没有人类能够自然地活到这个年龄。

But if you compare the American musical

但是，如果你将美国音乐剧 与之前的戏剧形式进行比较，

to the forms of theater that reached precedence before it,

it is a baby.

它就是一个婴儿。

To us, it feels like the American musical has always been,

对我们来说，美国音乐剧似乎一直存在，

since no one in this room and none of our parents

因为在场的各位，包括我们的父母， 甚至我们的祖父母，

and most likely any of our grandparents were alive in 1866 to see it begin.

没有人能够在 1866 年 看到它的开始。

Five generations is approximately the length of time

对于一个孩子来说，

it takes for a tradition to feel ancient to a child.

经过五代人的传承 才会形成一个古老的传统。

Think about that cure someone in your circle has for the common cold

想想你所认识的人中 有没有人有治疗感冒的秘方？

or that recipe your grandmother guards like a precious jewel.

或者你祖母如同珍宝一样的食谱。

Now chances are that cure is more placebo than it is effect,

很有可能那个秘方更多的是心理暗示 而不是真正有效，

and your grandmother's secret recipe may have come from a cookbook

而你祖母的秘密食谱可能来自于

her grandmother owned way back in the day.

她的祖母在很久以前就拥有的食谱。

But by the time it reaches us,

但是当它传承到我们这一代时，

it's taken on a different, constant feeling.

它变成了一种不同的、持续的感觉。

You're never going to meet the person who originated the tradition,

我们永远不会见到创造这个传统的人，

and so it becomes a part of the fabric of your reality,

所以它成为了你现实的一部分，

something that you base your knowledge of who you and the people around you are.

是你对自己和周围的人的认知的基础。

And in the case of the American theater, you will never meet the artist.

同样的，在美国戏剧行业， 你永远不会遇到这个艺术家。

Generations apply to art, just as they do artists.

就像艺术家一样， 艺术也具有代际性。

25 years is the average dividing line between the eras

随着时代的变迁 和我们用艺术提出不同的问题，

as tastes change and we use art to ask different questions.

平均每 25 年 就会形成一个新的艺术时代。

The American musical is currently in its sixth artistic generation,

现在，美国音乐剧已经进入 第六个艺术时代，

which means we just passed the ancient marker.

这意味着我们刚刚经过了 “古老”的标志。

That is a milestone in and of itself.

这本身就是一个里程碑。

Think of it like we've gone from being a teenage art form to a young adult.

想象一下，我们已经从一种少年艺术形式 过渡到了一种成年艺术形式。

Now, that transition may seem small on paper,

这个转变在纸面上现在可能看起来很小，

but as anyone who has ever gone back to their high school

但是任何曾经在大学第一学期后 回到高中的人，

after their first semester of college can tell you,

都可以告诉你，

that gulf is wider than you think.

这个鸿沟比你想象的要大。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

We've grown. We're different. We've learned.

我们成长了，变得不同了， 我们学到了很多东西。

We're still the same person, of course,

当然，我们还是同一个人，

but our hearts and minds are open to things we didn't even know existed.

但我们的心灵和头脑 对以前不曾了解的事物敞开了心扉。

The American musical is growing up,

美国音乐剧在成长，

and it is time for us to address the growing pains.

现在是我们要应对 成长中的疼痛的时候了。

For many of us, our instinct is

对于我们很多人来说，

to bury the phases of life that we cringe to look back on.

本能反应让我们不愿回忆 那些想掩盖的生活阶段。

And just like a Hot Topic T-shirt stashed in the back of a closet,

就像是一件被藏在衣橱角落里的 过气的土味潮牌，

we like to pretend it never existed.

我们愿意假装它从未存在过。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

I'm here to tell you that as satisfying as that may feel in the moment,

我来告诉你们， 虽然忽视问题在当下会让我们感到满足，

ignoring it is not the answer.

但逃避并不是解决之道。

You can donate the shirt. You can repurpose it into a cleaning rag.

你可以捐赠那件衣服， 也可以把它改成清洁抹布，

You can even light it on fire and dance around the embers if you so choose.

甚至可以烧了它， 围着火堆跳舞。

But you cannot make the shirt never have existed.

但你无法让那件衣服从未存在过。

The fact is, many older shows are difficult for us

事实上，许多旧的艺术作品

as modern audience members today.

对于我们现代观众来说很难欣赏。

And honestly, that is one of my greatest joys

实话实说，这是我最开心的事情之一，

because it is a direct sign of progress.

因为这是进步的直接标志。

Frankly, I would be a little bit worried

如果 156 年来 我们的审美观都没有改变，

if sensibilities had not changed in 156 years.

我真的会有点担心。

Remember that foundation-shifting question?

还记得那个我们最开始的问题吗？

How do we approach aging art?

我们该如何看待老旧艺术？

Well, we haven't been approaching it.

嗯，我们一直没有正面回答它。

The industry at large has been avoiding this question

自从 1970 年代的怀旧热潮以来， 整个行业都在回避这个问题。

since the nostalgia craze of the 1970s.

So great is the avoidance

这种逃避如此强烈，

that we don't even really have the language that we need

以至于我们根本没有可用的表达方式

to have these conversations.

来进行这些对话。

We have to start thinking of theater as something that is alive

我们必须开始将戏剧视为一种 有生命力的东西，

rather than a static museum piece.

而不是静态的博物馆展品。

It contains a piece of the creator's soul which lives on in the work.

它包含着创作者的灵魂， 这个灵魂在作品中得以传承。

We have to start thinking of theater like a dynamic, aging community member.

我们必须开始将戏剧看作一个 动态的、老去的社区成员。

What does this piece of theater trying to communicate?

这部剧作想要传达什么信息？

Is it still communicating that message effectively

即使在它最初被创作之后，

long after its initial creation?

它仍然能够有效地传达这个信息吗？

Or does something else communicate that message better now?

或者现在是否有其他载体 能够更好地传达这个信息？

Is it doing more help than harm?

“它对大众的帮助是否大于危害？”

These are the questions that I ask myself

每次我在老歌剧中拍拍灰尘时

every time I dust off a musical from yesteryear.

我都会问自己这个问题。

I'm here to give you my personal framework,

这个问题是我个人思考框架的一部分，

which I teach to students across the globe.

我给全球各地的学生 传授了这个框架。

Now it is not perfect,

这个框架不是完美的，

and I'm going to spend the rest of my life refining it.

我会用余生不断完善它。

But it is a start; it is a start in looking at the American musical

但这是一个开始，

一个从发展的角度 来看待美国音乐剧的开始，

as a progression

and in finding language to talk about

一个寻找如何讨论传统艺术

how things do and do not age in the modern zeitgeist.

在现代的时代精神中老化的 表达方式的开始。

The five categories are as follows.

框架中的五个类别是：

Category one: "Active."

第一类为“活跃”，

The piece, while not perfect, communicates its message effectively

虽然不完美，但作品有效地传达了信息，

without any potential problems getting in the way of that communication.

没有任何潜在问题干扰其传达；

Category two: "Tricky."

第二类为“棘手”，

The problems within the piece can be mitigated

作品存在问题，

by how the piece is directed or performed.

但可通过导演或表演来化解；

Category three: "Troublesome."

第三类为“麻烦”，

The problems are baked into the piece itself,

作品本身存在问题，

but if they are addressed in a cognizant manner,

但如果以一种认真的方式加以处理，

the show still has something salient to say.

仍然能传达出有意义的信息；

Category four: "Augmented."

第四类为“加强”，

You need to completely redo an aspect of the piece

你需要彻底重做这个作品的某个方面，

in order to make it palatable.

使其更易被接受，

This is where the concept of a revisal comes in.

这时就需要进行修订；

Category four: "Archived."

第五类为“归档”，

The piece has value historically,

这类作品在历史上有一定的价值，

but it does not need to be publicly performed anymore.

但它们不需要再公开演出了。

It has more value as a piece of where we have been

它作为我们曾经走过的阶段的一部分 会比作为我们未来的方向

than where we are going.

更有价值。

Now, the divisions between these five categories are porous.

现在，这五个类别之间的分界是模糊的。

A show may be tricky to one person and troublesome to another.

一个作品可能对一个人来说是棘手的， 但对另一个人来说则是麻烦的。

We all approach art from different vantage points

我们每个人都从不同的角度接触到艺术，

and therefore have different opinions.

因此有不同的观点。

However, for the sake of giving you an example of the framework,

为了给你提供一个该框架的例子，

I would like to take the canon

我想将美国音乐剧最伟大

of one of the American musical's greatest and most influential ancestors

和最有影响力的始祖之一的作品，

and present it to you within the framework.

放在框架内进行解析。

Oscar Hammerstein II.

奥斯卡·哈默斯坦二世。 （Oscar Hammerstein II）

Now first up is the "Active" category.

现在我们来看看“活跃”这一类别。

Now Oscar died in 1960,

奥斯卡·哈默斯坦二世 （Oscar Hammerstein II）逝于 1960 年，

which means that two artistic generations have passed since he passed.

这意味着自他去世以来 已经过去了两代艺术家。

He's essentially the great grandfather to our current artistic generation.

他相当于我们当前艺术家 这一代的曾祖父。

But many of his insights remain as cuttingly clear

但他的许多见解 仍然像他第一次呈现它们时那样

as they were when he first presented them.

清晰而尖锐。

Consider "The Sound of Music."

例如《音乐之声》。

Its message of heart, hope and humanity

它传达的关于心灵、 希望和人性的想法，

resonates with audience members across the world,

在全世界观众中引起共鸣，

making it one of the most performed

使其成为全国最受欢迎的

regional, community and educational theater pieces in the entire country.

地区、社区和教育戏剧作品之一。

It still has a tale to tell,

它仍然有要讲述的故事，

and audiences are still learning its lessons.

观众仍会从中有所收获。

Next up is the "Tricky" category,

接下来是“棘手”，

which in my opinion is the most flexible part of the framework.

我认为这是这个框架中 最灵活的部分。

It's up to us as artists to take these pieces

我们作为艺术家， 有责任来处理这些作品，

and elevate them in a responsible manner for a modern retelling.

并以一种负责任的方式提升它们， 以适应现代演出重映的需要。

Take "Oklahoma!" and "South Pacific."

以《俄克拉荷马！》和 《南太平洋》为例，

Both of these shows had landmark revivals in the last 15 years

它们在过去 15 年里都有 里程碑式的重演，

that upended the way the current generation views them,

颠覆了当代观众的看法，

without changing a single word that Oscar Hammerstein II wrote.

而且没有修改任何一点 奥斯卡·哈默斯坦二世写的原作。

This is the material that has the strength for a modern retelling,

只要我们以负责任的方式将其提升，

provided we lift it off the page in a responsible manner.

这些剧集就有在现代再演出的实力。

The third category is "Troublesome."

第三个类别是“麻烦”。

Now “Troublesome” are shows that still resonate with modern audiences.

“麻烦”是 这些作品仍然引起现代观众的共鸣，

but we may squirm a little bit in our seat if we look too close.

但如果我们仔细研究， 可能会有一些令人不安的因素。

"The King and I" is a perfect example of a show with many worthwhile messages:

《国王与我》就是一个很好的例子， 它传达了许多有价值的思想，

the importance of being a lifelong learner,

如终身学习的重要性，

seeing your fellow man as your equal,

人人平等的价值观，

working together toward a common goal,

为实现同一个目标 而共同努力的愿景，

while also having aspects that would not be well received

但同时也有一些方面，

if it was first presented today.

如果它是在当代首演， 可能就不会被友好的接受。

The white saviorism embedded in the initial source text,

如原剧本中的 “白人救世主主义”，

the treatment of East Asia,

对东亚文化的处理，

the way the Siamese women are underwritten and so on.

缅甸女人的描写等。

Category four, "Augmented,"

第四类是“加强”，

is when a show's troubles begin to outweigh its triumphs.

指的是一部作品的问题 开始超过它的成就。

Consider "Flower Drum Song."

以《花鼓戏》为例。

"Flower Drum Song" was written

《花鼓戏》是出于对美国亚裔群体

from a place of deep, abiding love and respect

深深的、慷慨的爱和尊重的角度 来创作的。

for the Asian American community.

But at the end of the day,

但最终，

Oscar was writing from the perspective of a community

奥斯卡的写作，

是从他永远无法真正融入的 群体的角度来写的。

that he could never truly be a part of.

In 2002, David Henry Hwang, an Asian American playwright,

2002 年，亚裔美国剧作家 黄哲伦（David Henry Hwang）

was brought in to dramatically revise the piece,

受邀大幅修改这部作品，

using songs that have become a part of the American zeitgeist

使用已经成为美国文化的代表性歌曲 作为配乐

as the soundtrack for far more honest representation.

以实现更加真实的呈现。

The final category, "Archived," is perhaps the most controversial.

最后一个类别是“归档”， 可能是最有争议的。

Some people confuse this category with bad and they are not at all synonymous.

有些人会把这个类别和糟糕的作品混淆， 但它们并不完全相同。

Just because a show is archived does not mean it was never useful.

一个作品被存档， 并不意味着它一无是处。

In fact, typically they were extremely useful in their day.

事实上，它们通常在它们的时代 非常有用。

Consider 1927's "Show Boat."

以 1927 年的《演出船》为例。

"Show Boat" is inarguably one of the most important musicals

《演出船》无可争议地是

in the history of the American theatrical canon.

美国戏剧史上最重要的音乐剧之一，

It changed the kind of conversations we could have onstage

它改变了我们在舞台上的对话方式，

and revolutionized what a musical could look like.

并革新了音乐剧的形式。

It also has ceased to create productive discussion with modern audiences.

但它已经无法为现代观众 带来富有成效的讨论。

Now the book has been rewritten ad nauseum

现在，当我们继续将《演出船》 不断地拉到现代时，

as we continue to pull "Show Boat" into the modern era.

这本书已经被重写了无数次。

But in my opinion,

但在我看来，

it now holds more value as an example of where we have been

它现在作为 我们已经走过的历程的一个例子，

than an example of where we are going.

比作为我们要去的未来的一个例子 更有价值。

Now you may disagree with me on any of these placements.

你可能不同意 我对这些分类的看法。

These six shows could exist in any number of categorical permutations.

这六个作品各自 也可以被划在不同的分类里。

What's important is that we have these discussions

重要的是，我们有这些讨论，

and we have the language to communicate in those discussions.

我们有进行这些讨论的表达方式。

We have to have these conversations

我们必须进行这些对话，

because they are the only way that we will grow.

因为它们是我们成长的唯一方式。

We have to make conscious decisions

我们必须做出有意识的决定，

about what art does and does not serve us as a community

决定哪些艺术是为 我们这个共同体服务的，

and what does and does not serve us going forward.

哪些是为我们未来服务的， 哪些不是。

Thank you for listening to me today.

谢谢大家今天聆听我的演讲。

I hope that we all have these difficult conversations

我希望我们都能优雅、认真地

with grace and consideration.

展开这些困难的对话。

(Applause)

（掌声）