How a geospatial nervous system could help us design a better future | Jack Dangermond

Transcriber: Ivana Korom Reviewer: Krystian Aparta

翻译人员: Yip Yan Yeung 校对人员: Grace Man

西蒙妮·罗斯（Simone Ross）：

杰克，我很想听你 介绍一下 ESRI 公司，

为什么 GIS （地理信息系统）如此重要。

杰克·丹杰蒙德（Jack Dangermond）： ESRI 是一家公司，

Simone Ross: Jack, I would love you to tell us what Esri is

业务为软件产品， 用户达到百万。

and also why GIS is so important.

类似于平台技术，

Jack Dangermond: So it is a company,

但不完全是平台。

it builds software products that are used by millions of people.

它研发了一些工具， 帮助人们更好地完成工作。

Kind of like a platform technology,

但这只是一个很笼统的说法，

but not literally platform.

准确来讲，帮助人们更好地 完成工作，通过地理学这门科学

It builds tools that help people do their work better.

和可视化这项科技，

And that's a very general statement,

but helps them do their work better using geography as a science

帮助他们做出更好的决定，

帮助他们提高效率，

and visualization as a science and technology

或帮助他们更好地 表达自己正在做的事情。

就是一种“绘制”。

to help them make better decisions,

大家普遍会把它看作“地图绘制”。

or help them be more efficient

这家公司支持着 35 万家组织机构。

or help them communicate what they're doing better

It's kind of mapping.

I mean, the way normal people would think of it as map-making.

你可以把它们看作我们的客户。

So this organization has 350,000 organizations that we support.

有成千上万家非政府组织，

致力于保护工作和人道主义事务，

They're our customers, you might say.

也有大企业，

And they range from NGOs, thousands and thousands of them,

但是我们主要的用户是公共部门，

working in conservation or humanitarian affairs,

城市、乡镇、

to large corporations,

国家政府机构，

but our majority of users are in the public sector,

我可以这么说， 它们运营着这个世界。

罗斯：我们总是会听说 企业利用科技

in cities and counties,

in national government agencies,

改善世界，

and they're basically running the world,

但是听起来 这早已深入你的骨髓。

that's the way I would say it.

SR: So right now, we hear a lot about companies using tech

丹杰蒙德：我在一个苗圃里长大，

to improve the world,

我的父母都是佣人，

but it sounds like that has always been baked into your DNA.

他们开了一个小小的苗圃 赚钱供我读书，

JD: I grew up as a young kid in a nursery,

这是我的视角。

他们是移民，会种一些植物。

my parents were servants,

and they started a little nursery to help put me through school,

在我成长的过程中，我发现了 他们很喜欢美化园林，

that's the way I saw it.

They were immigrants and they grew plants.

所以我去读了设计学校，

先去读了环境设计学校，

然后读了景观设计， 再然后读了城市规划。

They were attracted to landscaping,

在此过程中，

which I grew up understanding,

我深刻理解了 “解决问题”这一概念，

so I went to design school,

first environmental design school

and then landscape architecture and then city planning.

因为这就是设计的本质，

And in that progression,

你发现了一个问题， 你大开脑洞

I came to understand very clearly the idea of problem-solving,

想到了一个解决问题的方法。

我在哈佛开始了解系统和计算。

because that's what design really is about,

you see a problem and you come up, creatively,

with something that solves the problem.

然后我发现，哇， 这还是在 60 年代，

And at Harvard,

环境运动才刚刚萌芽，

I started to get engaged with systems and computing.

我就意识到“哇， 真的可以把科技用于环境设计”。

And I realized, wow, this was in the '60s,

you know, when the environmental movement was still just in its birthing,

这种理想主义常常会在 你还是个学生的时候出现，

I saw, "Wow, you could actually apply tech to environmental design."

“我真的能做成点事！”，

我很喜欢把系统论和科技

And so this idealism that often happens when you're in school,

you know, "I can really do something!" --

用于解决环境设计中的问题。

well, I loved the idea of taking systems theories

罗斯：你认为 ESRI 是一家科技公司吗？

丹杰蒙德： 我们从一些小项目开始，

and technology

and applying it to environmental design problem-solving.

定位一座新城镇，

定位一家店，

定位一条传输线，

SR: Do you call Esri a tech company?

把环境研究作为基础， 利用科技，

JD: We started doing little projects,

you know, locating a new town,

做出决定，

locating a store,

locating a transmission line,

通常都是设计上或规划上的决定。

doing environmental studies as a foundation, using tech,

我们做了差不多 10 年。

我们作为一家专业服务公司 逐渐成长，

to be able to make decisions,

which were largely design decisions or planning decisions.

持续不断地改良工具，

And we did that for about 10 years.

Just gradually growing as a professional services company,

让我们可以更好地完成项目。

这就是持续创新。

all the time continuously innovating tools

我们研发了首批地图数字化工具，

that would help us do our projects better.

首批计算机绘图工具。

And this idea of continuous innovation.

我们研发了第一批 专为商用的空间分析工具。

I mean, we invented some of the first digitizing tools for maps,

we invented some of the first computer map-making tools.

这十几年后，

We invented the first spacial analysis tools

客户开始说：

“哇！我也想做 你在做的事，杰克。”

that were commercial in nature.

And over that decade or so,

所以我们开始构思一款产品，

customers began to say,

我们也许可以把 专为特定项目设计的技术

"Gee, I'd like to do that work that you're doing, Jack."

So we started to think about the idea of a product,

做成一个通用的产品。

西蒙妮，这个产品的绝妙之处

that is, our technology that we applied on project by project

是通过地理学原理聚合信息。

could actually go into a product that people could use everywhere.

全面考虑种种因素

And the big idea of this product, Simone,

不仅可以让我们 先完成我们自己的项目，

was the integration of information using geographic principles.

还可以开发出 让别人完成项目的系统，

Bringing all the different factors together

再开发出一整套系统。

to not only first help us do the projects,

于是，我们从一家项目制公司 转型成了一家产品公司，

but then build these systems that help other people do the projects,

研发出系统，让各种机构组织 更好地完成工作。

and then later build systems.

So we went from a project company to a product company

罗斯：我相信你在做的事

某种意义上是在将 人类和人类研发的系统

that built systems that helped organizations do their work better.

与自然系统融合。

然后让人们可以直观地看到结果，

SR: What you're doing, I believe,

is sort of the integration of human and built systems

再想清楚如何更好、更智慧地

with natural systems.

为这个结果进行设计、建造。

And then helping people visualize that

我说的对吗？

丹杰蒙德：这是一方面。

and figure out then how they can design and build for that

我通常将其称为“地理设计”。

in a better, smarter way.

我们将地理这门身边世界的科学 进行数字化或抽象化。

Is that accurate?

JD: That's one aspect of it.

西蒙妮，你可以想到的所有因素，

We sometimes call that geodesign.

We digitize or abstract geography, the science of our world.

我会把它们想象成一层一层。

物理特性、环境特性、

You know, Simone, all of the factors that you think about,

人口特性。

我们把这些都纳入了 GIS 系统，

I think of as layers.

一层一层地叠加这些性质， 让我们做出更好的设计。

Physical features, environmental features,

demographic features.

We bring all of those things together in a GIS

我们在做设计的时候 会考虑全部的因素。

and then by overlaying those things, we can actually do better designs.

这就是让我这个学生 激动万分的一点，

因为我看到了 把所有“ XX 学”——

We design with all the factors holistically.

地质学、社会学、气候学等等 融合在一起的可能性，

That's what actually, as a student, got me excited,

然后基于此做出更好的决定，

because I saw you could bring all of the "ologies,"

所以我认为地理学 是所有科学之母，

all the geology, the sociology, the climatology, all together,

因为它是个综合学科。

数字化地理， 我们称之为 “GIS”，

and then make better decisions on that,

so I think of geography as the mother of all sciences,

让我们可以利用这个工具

because it's an integrative technology.

帮助改变人们做出决定的方式。

And then digital geography, what we call GIS,

allows us to be able to use that instrument

人们可以看到全局， 而不是其中一隅，

to empower the transformation of how people make decisions.

不只关注赚钱， 不只关注土地保护，

不只是其中任何一点。

它一口气优化了许多因素。

They can look at the whole, not just one factor,

not just making money, not just conserving land,

零售业，

not just this or that.

像星巴克、沃尔格林（Walgreens）、 沃尔玛这样的公司，

It's optimizing many factors at the same time.

这些零售巨头，

在美国、英国乃至全世界，

Yeah, so in the retail sector,

people like Starbucks or Walgreens or Walmart,

都会基于地理因素 决定它们的开店地点。

all the big retailers,

它们会关注人口统计数据、

both here in the US but in the UK, all around the world,

交通情况，

大型保险和再保险公司

use geographic factors to pick the right location.

会关注各种不同的因素来评估风险。

They look at the demographics,

the traffic,

and then the large insurance companies and reinsurance companies

它们会叠加这些因素， 为它们建模，

将高风险地区或低风险地区可视化。

look at all the different factors that are necessary to understand risk.

在灾害应对领域，

火灾，或是今日发生在 土耳其的大地震，

And they overlay them and they model them

and they visualize high-risk areas or low-risk areas.

灾害发生时， 需要完成一整套工作流程。

In disaster response,

whether it's fire, or like today, the big earthquake in Turkey,

响应、恢复，

there's a whole cycle of work that has to happen

有了充足的信息 就能让这些流程更加稳步推进。

when disasters happen.

You know, response, recovery,

这些信息本质上就是地理信息。

灾害应对、公共安全、

all these work activities are underpinned by having good information.

医疗和如今来自社会公正领域

And that information is geographic in nature.

困扰着我们的各种问题。

So disaster response, public safety,

区别在哪里？

health and looking at issues today that are troubling all of us

像疫情这样的事件发生时，

经济导致的失业发生时，

in the areas of social equity.

Where is there disparity?

我们可以研究地理数据， 整体地分析这些因素。

And when something like the pandemic happens,

这就很像你的思维方式。

or unemployment due to the economy happens,

我们创造了这款工具， 让你可以把现实抽象化，

we can look geographically and see these factors all coming together.

看到它，

So it's like your mind does in many ways.

看到各种因素之间的关联，

I mean, we built a tool that allows you to abstract reality

达成对它的理解。

理查德·索·乌曼 （Richard Saul Wurman），

and see it,

and then look at all the relationships between these factors

TED 的创始人，

经常说 TED 是一个善解人意的组织。

in order to create understanding.

“你要去理解，杰克， 和科技无关。

So Richard Saul Wurman, the founder of TED

你的用户要用你的工具 达成更深的理解。”

often describes us as an understanding organization.

他说的是“理解先于行动”。

"You're all about understanding, Jack, it's not about technology.

Your users use your tools to create better understanding."

这对我们的工作至关重要。

罗斯：你要打造的是一个平台，

And the way he describes it is understanding precedes action.

把各领域的知识联系在一起，对吗？

This is essential to our work.

丹杰蒙德：我们现在的产品叫做 “网络地理信息系统”（Web GIS）。

SR: And it is a platform that you're building,

so you're sort of connecting all these different areas of knowledge, right?

GIS 部署在网络上，

分布式信息中心提取数据，

JD: Today, we have what we call Web GIS.

So GIS lives in the web

进行地理参考，

将地理位置作为整合的一种方式。

with distributed centers of information that are pulling data out,

也许可以将其看作是 混合来源分布式服务

或分布式数据来源的不同层级。

georeferencing,

and using location as a way to do the integration.

我们的用户现在可以将 这些信息融合，动态地注入

We might call it mashing up different layers

from distributed services or distributed sources of information.

智慧城市，

或是最近的火爆话题 数字孪生之中。

And our users are now bringing this knowledge together dynamically

真实的地理情况

in things like smart cities

or the popular vernacular these days is digital twins.

可以为组织机构所用，

So all of that geographic reality

可以是应急响应组织、

公用事业部门或是政府。

can now be beamed into organizations,

可以是不同的部门，

whether they be emergency response organizations

执法部门，

科学、气候变化、生物多样性，

or utility organizations or government.

我们如今面临的一系列问题

And any of the different departments,

whether they be law enforcement

都有了更多的信息， 不仅仅是通过实时聚合信息，

or you know, science, climate change, biodiversity,

all of that series of issues that we're facing today

实时在地图上显示测量结果，

can be enriched by not only bringing together the information in real time,

还通过融合所有信息， 利用空间分析

或地理位置分析， 得出关联和规律。

real-time measurement seen on maps,

but also integrating those like using spatial analysis

不只是看到它，

还可以清楚地理解

or location analysis to look at the relationships and patterns.

事物之间的关联， 比如某个特定地区

You see, it's not just seeing it,

可能出现的 乳腺癌和污染之间的关联。

it's also explicitly understanding

也许我们可以说：“哈，我们现在 对这些因素有了定量的了解，

the relationships between something like breast cancer and pollution

that might exist in a particular geography.

这样我们就可以采取应对措施了。”

And saying, "Aha,

罗斯：你可以这么做

we can quantitatively understand these different factors

是因为你把每一层都叠加了起来，

还将它们可视化了。

and, as a result, respond."

丹杰蒙德：不仅是可视化， 还通过数学和建模

SR: So you can do that

because you are putting all these different layers on

将它们从空间上关联了起来。

and then you help visualize that.

这不单单是从视觉上 把材料一层一层叠加起来，

JD: Visualize it, but also spatially relate them

更是把这些地图上的图形、

with math and modeling.

因素、特性互相关联起来，

So it's not just a matter of visually overlaying material,

就像你思考的方式。

it's a matter of connecting the geometries

罗斯：我得读一下稿子， 因为我不想说错。

or the factors or the features on these maps to each other,

你之前说去年有个活动， 地理设计峰会，

like your mind does.

SR: I have to read this, because I don't want to get it wrong.

听起来很有趣，你说：

“转型不仅仅是做出改变，

You had said at some event last year, the Geodesign Summit --

还要抛下过去，着眼未来。”

which sounds fascinating to me -- you said,

你可以就这点说几句吗？

丹杰蒙德：自古以来， 我们都在受到环境的影响。

"Transformation is not just about change,

it's about leaving behind the past to focus on the future."

这就是世界的历史。

So can you talk a little bit about that?

世界限制了 我们作为人类可以做的事，

JD: Historically, we have been at the effect of the environment.

我们得适应、融入不同的环境情况。

I mean, this is the history of the world.

The world constrains us in what we can do as human beings

地理设计这一领域

旨在将地理系统和信息

and we often adapt and adopt to various environmental situations.

融入设计过程，

这样我们可以真正 受到大自然的引导，

This field of geodesign

提高敏感度，

is about bringing geographic systems and knowledge

这样我们可以应对 环境中更强大的力量，

into the design process

so that we can actually be guided by nature

我们可以这么做，

and be more sensitive to it

把世界看作一个花园。

so that we can be responsive to the greater forces of the environment

就像园艺，

and do it in such a way that we can take --

你得把杂草拔了， 给植物施肥，

料理各种事务，

it's thinking of the world as a garden.

浇好水。

It's like gardening,

此时此刻，

you must pull out the weeds, you nurture your plants,

我们之间的结构、 我们的思维方式

you take care of certain things,

和接收信息的方式，

you make sure things are watered.

让我们不会把世界看作一个花园，

不会全面思考，

And at this point,

不会想到我们生活中的关系

because of the way we are organized, and the way we think

and the way our information is brought to us,

影响着我们的生活。

we don't think as a garden,

导致了我们的漠不关心、

we don't think holistically,

we don't think of the relationships that are in our lives,

污染环境、搞砸一切。

夸张地说，

现在的世界真是一团乱麻。

that are affecting our lives.

And as a result, we're careless,

we're polluting the environment, we're messing it up.

我们经历了新冠危机，

但是天哪，新冠只是前奏。

I mean, on steroids,

I mean, the world is really in trouble at this particular point.

之后我们要面对的是 气候变化问题，

要解决这个问题可不简单。

I mean we have the crisis of COVID,

没有治愈良方。

but my God, COVID is just a little wave.

What's coming behind us is the climate change issue,

再之后是生物多样性流失，

再之后，

which is not so easy to fix.

我们得做到花了几十亿年 才做成的事。

There's no vaccine that's simply applied.

And then behind that, there's the loss of biodiversity

作为人类，

我认为我们得更积极主动地 照顾我们的地球。

and behind that,

it's sort of unraveling what has taken billions of years

to be able to put together.

罗斯：我们需要通过科学 和设计带来改变，

And so, as human beings,

而不要由科技的快速发展

my sense is we've got to be more responsive to take care of our place.

放在我们眼前或 强加于我们身上的改变。

SR: It's transformation with science and design

听起来我们得主动出击。

as opposed to transformation

丹杰蒙德：确实需要 我们主动出击。

brought on or foisted on us by rapid tech change.

说回我读书的时候，

我有了一个畅想， 或者说是想法——

It sounds very deliberate.

我们真的可以通过全面思考 更好地完成对环境的规划、

JD: It's very deliberate.

Again, when I was a student,

I got the vision or thought

设计和开发。

融会贯通。

that we could actually do environmental planning

我创立 ESRI 的时候，

and design and development better by thinking holistically.

我们想把项目做得更好，

因为我们可以把所有的因素

Bringing all the factors together.

都考虑进设计项目中。

And when I launched Esri,

然后我们开始开发系统，

we were starting to do projects better

刚开始是专为特定部门 设计的小型系统，

because we could integrate all of the factors

比如市政府的工程部门、

into the design projects.

Then as we started building systems,

规划部门、

林业管理机构，

they were first small, focused systems for a particular department,

或者是石油公司。

他们考虑了所有因素， 就能更好地完成他们的工作。

like an engineering department in a city

or a planning department,

or a forest management organization

然后……

这就改变了完成项目的方式，

or an oil company.

改变了这些不同部门里 人员的行为。

They could do their work better by considering all the factors.

Then --

自此，我们迈向了

And that transformed the way projects were done,

改变整个机构组织的目标。

and it transformed human activities in these different departments.

我说的是整个企业。

From there, we started to move on

从项目到系统， 再到整个组织机构的改变，

to the idea of transforming entire organizations.

你真的可以“迫使”这些组织机构

This meant entire enterprises.

So from projects to systems to organizational transformation

考虑所有因素。

我们有太多的案例了。

where you could actually have organizations by intention

现在我们投入了第四阶段。

look at all the factors.

前三个阶段都牵涉到 某些技术创新，

And we have so many examples of this.

And now, there's a fourth phase that we're very engaged in.

但是第四阶段基于网络，

Those three phases involve certain kinds of technology innovation,

需要利用网络服务，

目的不是一次改变一个公司，

but the fourth phase is resting on the web

不是一次改变一个项目，

而是改变社会，

with web services,

and its intention is not to transform simply one organization at a time

我们要提高地理意识，

丰富地理知识，

or one project at a time,

看看人类的足迹 造成了什么样的后果。

it's to transform society

这个过程会带来巨变，

so that we can raise the bar with geographic consciousness

因为人们不想搞砸了，

and geographic knowledge

人们想知道该做些什么，

to see what our human footprint is causing.

想站在该站的位置，

And this is so transformational,

because people don't want to mess up,

不想故意破坏湿地，

they want to know what to do

想要和大自然一起设计。

and they want to put the foot down in the right location,

罗斯：你说的是 “地理空间神经系统”吧。

they don't want to mess up wetlands by intention,

丹杰蒙德：是的， 搭建一个地理空间神经系统

they want to design with nature.

可以让我们如此引导社会。

SR: So you're talking about what you call a geospatial nervous system.

引导的方式并不是 一个人引导另一个人，

JD: Yes, building a geospatial nervous system

will allow us to guide society in such a way.

完全不是这样。

而是像互联网那样。

And in a way, it's not somebody guiding others,

一个互相联结的网络， 提供知识、

分享知识、

it's not like that at all.

利用他人的知识。

It's like the internet itself.

我们需要跨学科的知识，

It's an interconnected network of serving knowledge,

不同种类的科学知识，

让我们在行动前 看清楚、想明白。

sharing knowledge,

and using each other's knowledge.

That is, multidisciplinary knowledge,

我们正在做的是打造工具，

different kinds of science knowledge

让不同机构组织的信息互通。

to be able to see and understand

before action.

世界各地不同组织里的不同人员

All we're doing is building tools

that interconnect different organizations' information.

正在搭建我称之为 “地理空间基础设施”的系统。

And independent actors running in independent organizations

他们将其架设在网络之上。

all around the world

are building something I like to call this geospatial infrastructure.

一家公司提供了他们的信息，

另一家公司可以搭配自己的信息 使用这些信息，

And they're layering it on top of the web.

由此做出更好的决定，

It's like one agency is serving their information

更可持续的决定。

and another one is able to use it with their own information

目前这些人员还是相互独立的。

无人掌控， 没有来自总部的指令。

and therefore make better decisions,

于是一种编织架构应运而生。

make more sustainable decisions.

Now, they're still all independent actors.

我来举个实际的例子。

太平洋煤气电力公司，

I mean, there's no control, there's no orders from headquarters.

加州的一家巨型企业，

What this is is a fabric that's emerging very rapidly.

世界上最大的公用事业公司之一，

Let me give a practical example.

在网上分享了 他们的停电和用电量信息，

The Pacific Gas and Electric corporation,

a very large organization here in California,

与加州消防员分享，

one of the largest utilities in the world,

is sharing their outage and utility information over the web

与应急管理人员分享，

这样双方都可以更好更快地 作出响应。

with the State of California fire people

他们正在以全新的方式 通过地理信息互相分享、合作。

and emergency management people,

so that they can act better and vice versa.

大型联邦应急管理部门 美国联邦应急管理署（FEMA），

So they're sharing and collaborating through geographic information

将他们的应急管理信息

in whole new ways.

分享给各州、各市，

And the FEMA, the large federal emergency management organization

而地方会将他们的数据 叠加在 FEMA 的数据之上，

is sharing their emergency management information

FEMA 的数据基于美国 国家海洋和大气管理局（NOAA）

with states and cities

关于天气和卫星运行的信息等等。

who are overlaying their data on FEMA data,

这个基于网络、基于互联网的系统，

which is overlaying on top of NOAA's information on the weather

and the tracking of satellites, and so on.

融合了各种人员手上的信息。

So this web-based, internet-based system

单独来看，

这些人员可以更全面地 解决他们自己的问题。

is allowing the fusion of information from many different actors.

罗斯：你觉得我们可以 克服这些困难吗？

And independently,

these actors are able to more holistically solve their problems.

丹杰蒙德：如今， 由于我们日渐增多的消费形式

和地球的人口过剩，

SR: Do you think we can overcome these challenges?

我们有大麻烦了。

我觉得我们能做的是

JD: Today, both because of our increased consumption patterns

减少人口的影响，

and the overpopulation of the planet,

优化我们的行为，

we're in severe trouble.

So what we can do is, I think,

节约能源，

minimize the impact of population,

我们能做各种各样的事。

we can optimize the work that we do,

我对未来还是非常乐观的。

we can save energy,

这就是我每天的动力，

we can do all of these various things.

And I have a very positive feeling about the future.

这个畅想已经在我的脑海中 徘徊了超过 50 年，

This is what drives me day and night.

我们必须这么做。

这无关结果如何，

I mean, I have had that vision for over 50 years

这是我能想到的 创造可持续未来的唯一途径。

that we must do this.

我们必须运用 我们最先进的科学知识、

It's not a question of the outcomes,

it's the only way that I can think of to create a sustainable future.

最好的设计和批判性思维、

We must apply our best science,

最佳的系统论、

最高级的科技，

we must apply our best design and critical thinking,

齐心协力，

we must apply our best systems theories,

一同克服我们眼前的艰难险阻。

we must apply our best technologies,

ESRI 作为一家公司，

过去、现在、未来都会致力于 凝聚这些力量，

in concert,

to be able to address the great challenges that we are all facing.

And Esri, as an organization,

支持各机构组织

更全面地独立完成它们的工作。

has always been and will always be all about bringing those forces together

这是一幅宏伟蓝图。

罗斯：你有没有一些 建议或者指导意见

to be able to support organizations independently

想给现在的年轻创业者？

doing their work in this more holistic way.

That's the big vision.

他们想通过科学和技术，

SR: So what advice or guidance

如果没办法拯救世界，

would you give to a young entrepreneur today

也能改变世界或改善世界，

who, sort of, wants to use tech and science

因为这显然是 未来的希望和潜力所在。

to, you know, if not save the world,

如果有人已经 在这条路上走了一会儿了，

transform the world or improve the world,

because obviously, that's where a lot of the hope and the potential is.

你会给这些年轻人 什么建议呢？

So as someone who has been doing this for quite some time now,

丹杰蒙德： 有各种各样的机会

可以让你在这世上 做些事，做些贡献。

what would your advice be to someone like that?

我十分庆幸我的父母都是佣人，

JD: Well, there's so many different opportunities

他们教会了我服务他人。

to be able to work and contribute in the world.

这是一份宝贵的礼物。

I was very lucky with parents who were servants

我去哈佛读书的时候，

哈佛也有鼓励学生 担任公职的理念，

and they taught me to be in service to others.

This was a great value gift.

鼓励学生竭尽全力回馈他人。

When I went to Harvard,

there was also a philosophy there to be in public service,

哈佛也一直在为公共部门 输送大量人才。

在英国，牛津和剑桥 也有同样的理念，

to be able to focus your life, to be able to give back.

And Harvard has been a huge contributor to those in public sector.

致力于为公共服务事业培养人才。

In the UK, Oxford and Cambridge had that same kind of philosophy

我认为服务只是其中一个元素。

第二点是坚持不懈追求你的目标。

of growing the next generation that's in public service.

So I think service is one of the elements.

对我来说， 我的目标是把系统论和

The second one is really being about staying focused on your vision.

科技融为一体，

更好地解决问题。

For me, my vision was this idea of bringing systems theories

从设计开始， 到现在的整个机构组织

and science and technology together

和整个社会。

它不是从天而降的，

to be able to do better problem-solving.

而是经过我和我的太太

First with design and now whole organizations

对我们人生的选择 深思熟虑得出的。

and society in general.

That didn't just happen,

我们很幸运。

it was thoughtful time spent by myself and with my wife

我们找到了我们为之振奋的追求。

我们思考、畅想，

to think about what we should with our life.

“没错，这是 我们真正能做到的事。”

And we were really lucky.

我们不知道未来在何方，

We found this great thing that we were passionate about.

但是至少我们选择了 我们兴趣的一部分，

We thought and visualized,

"Yes, this is really something we could actually do."

热情引领着我们， 我们真是走运了。

We had no idea where it would go,

我们没有把公司交给别人， 而是交了好运。

but at least we picked a segment of our interest

我们很幸运地可以 低调地生活了几十年，

to be able to follow this passion and we lucked out.

And we didn't sell out, we lucked out.

一手建立起这个公司，

We were very fortunate to live very modestly for several decades

同时坚持着我们的目标。

所以我的建议是， 找到你热爱的东西，

to build up this organization

你真正可以为之贡献的东西，

and stay focused on our purpose.

支持你理想的东西，

So my suggestion is, find something that you really love,

不要见钱眼开， 把它卖给风投，

或者借钱，

that you really can contribute to,

这些都会阻碍你实现你的理想。

that really supports your idealism,

and don't sell out for money or venture capital

罗斯：我觉得

科技和生命科学的交叉领域

or borrow money,

none of that actually winds up in being able to retain your idealism.

现在正在发生一些有趣的事情，

你刚才提到的交叉领域也是，

SR: So I think there is so much happening

我觉得它们都很有可能

on the intersection of tech and life science right now

会成为我们迈向未来的 一部分答案。

that is so exciting,

but also at this intersection that you're talking about as well,

丹杰蒙德：我认为我们将在 接下来的几年里

and very much, I think,

will be part of the solutions for us going forward.

迈出网络 GIS 的一大步。

某种程度上可以说是恰合时宜。

JD: I think that this big step of Web GIS that we're into right now

联合国把联合国 可持续发展目标（SDG）——

will happen over the next few years.

这些全球性的可持续问题

And it's, in some ways, just in time.

放上了网络 GIS 平台。

Like the UN has organized their SDGs,

我们从下至上、“因国制宜”地 搭建了这个系统，

these global sustainability issues,

让各项 SDG 的达成情况 都可以昭告全世界，

into this Web GIS platform.

We're building a system which is bottom-up and country by country,

就像疫情的处理情况，

其他 290 个指标有什么进展。

that allows all the SDG reporting to be able to tell the world,

无论是从政女性、

还是森林流失、水质问题，

like they did with COVID,

what's happening with the other 290 indicators.

这些都是大事。

这不只是机构组织的问题了。

Whether it's, you know, women in politics

or whether it's loss of forests or water quality,

我们逐渐可以看到 独立系统被统一、

this is a big deal.

整合进了“系统的系统”，

So it isn't just organizations anymore.

We're starting to see unifiers, integrators

我认为这是在向世界传达信息， 也在改变世界。

如果我们要构建一个 可持续的社会，

of the individual systems into this system of systems,

这会是关键的一步。

which I think can talk to the world and transform the world.

罗斯：很好。

我觉得是时候结束了。

This is essential

if we are going to evolve to a society that's sustainable.

非常感谢。

太棒了。

SR: Great.

我很高兴我们能有这样的对话。

I think that is a perfect place to stop.

Thank you so much.

This was really wonderful.

I'm really, really glad that we got to do this.