Democracy Requires Disagreement. Here’s How To Do It Better | Bret Stephens and Yordanos Eyoel | TED

翻译人员: Fanglin ren 校对人员: Bruce Wang

Yordanos Eyoel: It's my absolute pleasure to be here with Bret.

Yordanos Eyoel：能和 Bret 在一起真是太 高兴了。

As we all know, we are living in a highly polarized time

众所周知，我们生活 在一个高度两极分化的时代

where even the topic of democracy has become a highly divisive issue.

即使是民主话题也 已成为一个极具分裂性的问题。

I also believe that there's this pernicious sentiment,

我还认为，美国和全球

both in the US and globally,

都有一种有害情绪，

that democracy is only functional when we agree.

即只有当我们达成共识时，民主才能 发挥作用。

In fact, what democracy requires us

实际上，民主要求我们继续

is to continually live with our differences

忍受分歧 ，管理这些分歧

and manage those differences for the collective good.

为集体利益着想。

We won't always have consensus,

我们并不总是能达成共识，

but we will always need to productively manage our differences.

但我们始终需要富有成效地 管理分歧。

I also believe that in an inclusive democracy,

我还认为，在 包容性民主中，

we need systems and norms and a culture

我们需要支持充满活力、多民族、多种族、

that supports vibrant, multiethnic,

多宗教的社会

multiracial, multi-religious society

以及

as well as ideological diversity.

意识形态多样性的制度、规范和文化。

Among many things,

除其他外，

this requires us to be adept at having difficult conversations

这要求我们善 于进行艰难的对话，

and also to listen when we disagree.

并在我们有分歧时倾听。

So Bret and I come to the stage with very different life experiences,

因此，我和布雷特 带着截然不同的生活经历来到舞台，

but we also have a lot in common.

但我们也有很多共同点。

We both have lived in different cultures,

我们都生活在不同的文化中，

we're multilingual.

我们会说多种语言。

And, more salient for this conversation,

而且，在本次对话中，更突出的是，

we both believe that we have a crisis of democracy, but we're also hopeful.

我们都认为我们面临民主危机 ，但我们也充满希望。

We believe that we collectively, not only can defend democracy

我们认为，我们集体 不仅可以捍卫民主

but also strengthen it to become more pluralistic.

还可以加强民主， 使其变得更加多元化。

So, Bret, I'm excited to be in this conversation with you

所以，布雷特，我很高兴能

and would love to start with a more personal question.

和你谈话，也很想从一个更私人的问题 开始。

I know both of us draw inspiration from our life experiences,

我知道我们俩都 从生活经历中汲取灵感

and I know you're passionate about democracy,

我知道你们对民主充满热 情，

but where does that come from?

但这从何而来？

What in your background makes you passionate about democracy,

你的背景是什么让你 对民主充满热情

and why are you worried?

你为什么担心？

Bret Stephens: I think a lot has to do with my background.

布雷特·斯蒂芬斯：我认为 与我的背景有很大关系。

In 1917,

1917年，

my great grandparents were living in Moscow.

我的曾祖父母住 在莫斯科。

And there was a brief experiment with democracy

那年三月到十月

between March and October of that year.

之间进行了一次简短的民主 实验。

It ended badly.

结局很糟糕。

My great grandfather was arrested and he disappeared,

我的曾祖父被捕 后失踪了，

and it sent my great grandmother and her four children into exile.

这使我的曾祖母 和她的四个孩子流亡。

They ended up in Germany up until 1933,

他们最终来到德国，直到1933年，

when the rise of Adolf Hitler sent them into exile again.

阿道夫·希特勒的崛起 使他们再次流亡。

They were a Jewish family.

他们是一个犹太家庭。

They went to Italy, where my mother was born.

他们去了意大利，我的母亲 在那里出生。

My mother was born and spent the first five years

我的母亲在纳粹占领的欧洲出生 和度过了最初的五年

as a hidden child in Nazi-occupied Europe,

是一个隐藏的孩子，

and then her next five years as a stateless person,

然后在接下来的五年里 ，她是一个无国籍人士，

a person without a passport.

一个没有护照的人。

And it was only because Harry Truman

只是因为哈里·杜鲁门

pushed through the Displaced Persons Act

在20世纪40年代末

in the late 1940s

推动了《流离失所者法》

that my mother was able to arrive here with seven dollars as a refugee.

我的母亲才得以作为难民 带着七美元来到这里。

So the idea of the open society is not an abstraction for my family.

因此，开放社会的概念对我的家庭来说 并不是一个抽象的概念。

And I think for so many of us who have immigrant roots,

我认为，对于我们当中许多有移民血统 的人来说，

we feel, very strongly, that this idea of an open society

我们非常强烈地感 到，这种开放社会的想法实际上

is actually a rare and a precious one,

是一种罕见而珍贵的概念，

and it's one that we really have to invest in defending.

也是我们真正 必须投入资金来捍卫的。

Because if it goes,

因为如果真是

there's not a place for people like us,

这样，像我们这样的人，来自少数民族背景

people from minority backgrounds,

的人， 传统上遭受迫害

people who have been traditionally persecuted.

的人，没有一席之地。

I also spent my early years in Mexico City

我早年也在墨西哥城度过，

when it was a essentially an authoritarian society.

当时那里本质上 是一个专制社会。

So I get, in my bones, the difference

因此，在我的骨子里，我明白了什么是开放社会、 什么是封闭社会

between what an open society is, what a closed society is,

以及前 者很容易变成后者

and how easy it is for the former to slip into becoming the latter.

之间的区别。

YE: And I think that's what we're seeing all over the world, right?

YE：我想这就是我们在 世界各地看到的，对吧？

So the renowned think tank International Idea

因此，著名的智囊团 国际创意最近

released a report recently

发布了一份报告，

saying that democracy is continuing to deteriorate

称世界各地的民主

in every part of the world.

都在持续恶化。

What do you think is driving that problem?

你认为是什么导致了这个问题？

Like, how are you making sense of this moment?

比如，你对这一刻 有何看法？

BS: I came of age with the end of the Cold War.

BS：随着冷战的结束，我长大了。

I turned 18 just before the Soviet Union collapsed.

就在苏联解体之前 我已年满18岁。

And I remember that incredible optimism that people felt in the 1990s

我还记得20世纪90年代人们那种难以置信的 乐观情绪，他们

that democracy was the future, that we had reached the end of history.

认为民主是未来， 我们已经走到了历史的尽头。

Turns out it was a terrible way of thinking about the world,

事实证明，这是一种糟糕 的世界思考方式，

not least because it made us complacent

尤其是因为它使我们对维持民主意味着 什么

about what it means to sustain a democracy.

感到自满。

Democracy isn't just a kind of a mechanical system

民主不只 是一种机械体系，

that kind of works miraculously by itself,

它可以奇迹般地自行运作，

without people investing energy, ideas,

无需人们投入精力、思想以及改革

and a willingness to reform and adapt to make it thrive.

In the last, I think, 20 years,

我认为，在过去的20年中，

there's a sense that democracy isn't performing a series of functions

人们感觉到，

that it was intended to perform

在经济增长、包容性和向上流动方面，

in terms of economic growth,

民主并没有发挥其本应

in terms of inclusion,

发挥的一系列功能。

in terms of upward mobility.

People look at other systems and they say,

人们看着其他系统，他们会说

"Well, that's more efficient, that gets things done."

：“好吧，这样效率更高， 可以把事情做好。”

And it is absolutely the case

而且绝对是这样

that if you look at many of the so-called advanced democracies,

如果你看看许多所谓 的先进民主国家，

they have not been providing

它们并没有像承诺

as they had promised to provide.

的那样提供援助。

Economic growth stagnant,

经济增长停滞不前，

particularly in much of of Europe.

尤其是在欧洲大部分地区。

A sense that people are dividing increasingly into classes

有一种感觉，人们 越来越多地分成阶级，

and that elites have become self-dealing,

精英阶层已经开始自我交易，

that we perpetuate a system that is for the benefit --

我们延续一种有利于利益的制度——

I'm speaking as an elite now --

我现在 说的是精英阶层——

for the benefit of our kids at the expense of other people's kids.

以牺牲他人的孩子为代 价，为我们的孩子谋福利。

And I think that explains the moment of populism

我认为这解释 了民粹主义

and kind of authoritarianism

和专制主义的时代，

that has crept into so much of our discourse

这种专制主义已经渗透到我们在美国和世界各地 的

here in the United States and throughout the world.

大部分话语中。

People are starting to say, well, maybe that's a model.

人们开始说， 好吧，也许这是一个模型。

We would do well to remember

我们最好记

that democracy has previously fallen into these crises,

住，民主以前曾 陷入过这些危机，

but at our best,

但

we have been able to reform,

无论是20世纪30年代新政的改革可以追溯到像泰迪·罗斯福这样的人

whether it was the reforms of the 1930s of the New Deal

走出镀金时代

going back to the progressive era

的进步时代，

of people like Teddy Roosevelt emerging from the Gilded Age.

我们都能够进行改革。

This is a pattern in history.

这是历史上的一种模式。

But it doesn't mean that we're fated to overcome the challenges we have now.

但这并不意味着我们注定 要克服我们现在面临的挑战。

If we don't put our shoulders to the proverbial wheel,

如果我们不站 在众所周知的车轮上，

we are going to end up moving towards a Hungarian-style system.

我们最终将走 向匈牙利式的体系。

Or perhaps even worse.

或者甚至更糟。

YE: I want to double click on your point around disillusionment

YE：我想双击 你的观点，即民主没有兑现其经济承诺所带来的幻灭，

coming from democracy not delivering on its economic promises, right?

对吧？

And some people would argue

有些人会争辩说，

that perhaps there is another compelling alternative

也许中国提供了另一种 令人信服的替代方案，

that is offered by China, right?

对吧？

And so how would you respond to that?

那么你会如何回应呢？

What would you say to people who say that,

你会对 那些这样说，

actually democracy has not been working for me?

实际上民主对我不 起作用的人说什么？

BS: So I think this is one of the great debates

BS：所以我认为这是定义21世纪

that's going to define the 21st century.

的伟大辩论之一。

Does the Chinese model, at least at its "best"

中国模式， 至少在有效威权主义的

of efficient authoritarianism,

“最佳”状态下，

is that a superior model for providing more goods to more people,

是不是

more satisfaction,

比我们的妥协和官僚

than our democratic system of compromises and bureaucracy

主义的民主制度 以及需要很长时间的事情才能为

and things taking a long time?

更多的人提供 更多商品、更高的满意度？

And I've consistently made the argument

而且我一直

that as problematic as democracy often is,

认为，尽管民主往往存在问题，但与中国解决方案相比，

it is a vastly preferable solution to the Chinese solution.

它是一个非常可 取的解决方案。

And for a couple of reasons.

还有几个原因。

The first is that authoritarian systems like China

首先，像中国这样的专制制度

are very good at advertising their strengths

非常善于宣传 自己的优势

and hiding their weaknesses.

和掩盖自己的弱点。

Democracy, almost by its nature,

民主几乎就其本质而言，

is constantly advertising its weakness.

一直在宣传其弱点。

But it's hiding its strengths, even to itself,

但是它隐藏了自己的长处， 甚至隐藏在自己身上，

so that we're sort of constantly surprised when we somehow emerge stronger

因此，当我们以某种方式变得

than some of our adversaries.

比某些对手更强大时， 我们会经常感到惊讶。

If you look back to the 1970s,

如果你回顾1970年代，

it was a period of real disillusionment and doubt about the future of democracy.

那是一个对民主未来的真正幻灭 和怀疑的时期。

But it was in the 1970s

但是在20世纪70年代

that some guy named Steve Jobs was kind of tinkering

，一个名叫史蒂夫·乔 布斯的人在修补，

and, you know, in a garage somewhere

你知道，在某个地方的车库里，

or Bill Gates,

或者比尔·盖茨，

all these people who have really defined the decades to come were in obscurity.

所有这些真正定义 未来几十年的人都默默无闻。

We just didn't know about this.

我们只是对此一无所知。

So when China advertises its strengths, when it looks strong,

因此，当中国宣传自己的优势 时，当它看起来强大时，

on the one hand it appears to be fearsome.

一方面它似乎很可怕。

On the other hand, there are fewer mechanisms in China

另一方面，中国的

that are self-correcting mechanisms.

自我纠正机制较少。

If the leader in China, Xi, says,

如果中国领导人习近平说：

"We're going to invest a trillion dollars in a Belt and Road initiative,"

“我们将在 “一带一路” 倡议上投资一万亿美元 ，”

no one disputes that.

没有人对此提出异议。

No one asks questions about it.

没有人问这方面的问题。

Turns out it was a trillion-dollar bad investment for China.

事实证明，这对中国来说是一笔数万亿美元的 不良投资。

In the end, the one advantage democracies have

归根结底， 民主国家的一个优势

is that we bend and we adapt.

是我们要屈服和适应。

But authoritarian systems are brittle.

但是专制制度很脆弱。

They're like glass.

它们就像玻璃一样。

So when they begin to break, they can very quickly shatter.

因此，当它们开始破裂时， 它们会很快破碎。

And I think that's one of the lessons

我认为这是我从1980年代吸取

that I draw from the 1980s.

的教训之一。

Early 1980s,

20世纪80年代初，

the Soviet Union looked strong.

苏联看起来很强大。

And it was on the ground by the end of the decade,

在本世纪末，

again, because it is hiding its weaknesses,

它再次站稳了脚跟 ， 因为它在掩盖自己的弱点，

advertising its strengths.

宣传自己的优势。

We're on the other side.

我们在另一边。

We may surprise ourselves by how resilient and adaptable we might be.

我们可能会惊讶于我们的韧 性和适应能力。

YE: I love that, and I think it also spoke to the messaging problem

YE：我很喜欢，我认为这也 说明了我们在民主方面

that we have on the pro-democracy front.

存在的信息传递问题。

And obviously the media plays a huge role in that.

显然，媒体在其中 起着巨大的作用。

And you're a journalist

而且你是一名记者，

and we know that, from all of the latest trust metrics,

，我们知道， 从所有最新的信任指标来看，

that the media is one of the least-trusted institutions

媒体是仅次于

next to governments globally.

全球政府的信任度最低的机构之一。

And so in this moment,

因此，在这个时刻，

when we're having a crisis in our information ecosystem,

当我们的信息生态系统面临危机 时，你认为媒体 需要

how do you think the media needs to evolve,

如何发展，

first and foremost to gain trust or regain trust,

首先是为了获得信任 或重新获得信任，

and then secondly,

其次是保护民主，

to protect democracy and be a champion for democracy

以你所说的方式成为

in the ways that you're talking about?

民主的拥护者？

BS: Look, I think the best way the media can protect democracy

BS：你看，我认为媒体保护民主的最好方法

is if it should stay in its lane,

是让它坚持自己的道路，

which is to say you want your liver to perform the functions of a liver,

也就是说，你希望肝脏发挥肝脏的功能，

not the functions of a heart.

而不是心脏的功能。

Everything has its place

一切都有其位置，

so that when too much of the media

因此，当过多的媒体

goes into the mold of effectively social advocacy,

进入有效的社会宣传模式时，

it is eroding trust,

就会削弱信任，

particularly among people

尤其是在不一定 同意特定类型的社会倡导

who don't necessarily agree with a given type of of social advocacy.

的人群中。

You know, back in the 1960s, we had a flawed system.

你知道，早在20世纪60年代， 我们的系统就存在缺陷。

But when Walter Cronkite would say,

但是，当沃尔特·克朗凯特说：

"And that's the way it was this day,

“今天就是这样，

I don't know, March 15, 1966,"

我不知道，1966年3月15日” 时，

America went, "Yeah."

美国说：“是的。”

And there was a sense of authority.

而且有一种权威感。

I think one of the ways in which the media has hurt itself

我认为媒体伤害自己的方式之一

is that we have allowed it --

是我们允许了它 ——

we, I'm part of it --

我们，我是其中的一部分 ——

we have allowed that sense of authority to dissolve.

我们允许这种权威感消失。

Now, part of it has to do with new technologies, social media,

现在，部分原因 与新技术、社交媒体、

the diversification of the media ecosystem, cable news.

媒体生态系统的多样化、 有线电视新闻有关。

You can talk about lots of exogenous reasons

你可以谈论对媒体的信任

why trust in the media has eroded.

减弱的许多外在原因。

But I kind of tend to think of, you know, physician, heal thyself.

但我倾向于想，你知道，医生，治愈自己。

Those of us who are in the mainstream media

我们当中那些

really need to reflect in a deep way

在主流媒体工作的人

as to why so many segments of American society

确实需要深入反思为什么美国社会

have stopped trusting us.

的许多阶层不再信任我们。

And part of the answer, I think,

我认为，部分答案

is that we have given them reasons not to trust us.

是我们给了他们不信任我们的 理由。

It's incredibly important that the media include

媒体在其队伍中纳入更

a much greater amount of diversity within its ranks.

大的多样 性非常重要。

And I don't just mean diversity of race and ethnicity.

而且我的意思不只是种族和族裔 的多样性。

Those things are obviously important.

这些事情显然很重要。

I also mean diversity of class, of geographic location.

我还指的是阶级和地理位置 的多样性。

If you don't have reporters

如果你没有在密苏里州布兰森

who kind of grew up in, wherever, Branson, Missouri

或 我们称之为天桥之乡的纽约 任何地方长大的记者，

or what here in New York we call flyover country,

那么你就错过了故事的很大一部分。

you're missing a big part of the story.

You may have missed how it is that this guy,

你可能错过了这个没有希望在2016年成为总统的人

with no hope of becoming president in 2016

在2016年成为总统的样子。

became president in 2016.

So we have to be listening to those voices,

因此，我们必须倾听那些声音，

particularly the ones that we disdain, dislike,

尤其是那些我们不屑一顾、不喜欢、

don't think are worthy of inclusion.

认为不值得纳入的声音。

The media cannot be an echo chamber.

媒体不能是回声室。

If that's what we end up becoming, we will disserve ourselves,

如果我们最终变成这样， 我们将解散自己，

we will disserve democracy,

我们将捍卫民主，

we'll disserve even our own business model.

甚至会破坏我们自己的商业模式。

Because at the end of the day, if people don't trust us,

因为归根结底， 如果人们不信任我们，

they're not going to turn to us.

他们就不会求助于我们。

YE: I really appreciate that.

YE：我真的很感激。

So we talked about what you think needs to be done in media.

因此，我们讨论了你认为 需要在媒体上做什么。

There are a lot of people who wake up

有很多人醒

and who don't think about these issues, right?

来后没有考虑 这些问题，对吧？

What do ordinary people need to do in this moment

普通百姓在这一刻 需要做些什么

to contribute to a healthier, more inclusive democracy?

来为更健康、 更具包容性的民主做出贡献？

Are you seeing solutions,

您是否在社区 或世界各地的工作中看到解决方案、

exciting solutions in your community or from your work across the world?

令人兴奋的解决方案？

Like, what are some suggestions

比如，对于我们个人可以做什么，

that you have for what we could do as individuals?

你有什么建议？

BS: Look, it begins with us.

BS：你看，从我们开始。

It begins with each of you

从你们每个人开始，

and I tend to be wary of, like, coming up with a grand scheme.

我往往会对想出一个宏伟的计划持谨慎态度。

Start your day by reading someone you know you're going to disagree with.

从阅读你知道会不同意的人开始新的一天。

The worst that can happen

可能发生的最糟糕的情况

is it will sharpen your own argument, right?

是它会使你自己的论点更加尖锐，对吧？

You will at least know what your ideological opponent,

你至少会 知道你的意识形态对手，

or maybe even your enemy,

甚至你的敌人，

as you perceive that person to be,

正如你所认为的那样，

is thinking.

在想什么。

It doesn't hurt you.

它不会伤害你。

Your media diet should not be a morning massage

你的媒体饮食不应该是早间按摩，

where you have your personal genius affirmed

你的个人天才会得到肯定，

because you're taking in the views of someone who thinks as you do

因为你是在听取一个和你一样思考

but just says it a little bit better.

但说得更好一点的人的观 点。

And I try to do this.

而且我正在努力做到这一点。

I mean, people know that I'm a center-right columnist.

我的意思是，人们 知道我是一个中右翼专栏作家。

Look, I work at the New York Times.

看，我在《纽约时报》工作。

I just open up my own paper,

我只是打开自己的报纸，

and I'm starting to read people I don't agree with.

然后我开始读那些 我不同意的人。

It's good for me, it's good for me.

这对我有好处，对我也有好处。

It sharpens my arguments.

它强化了我的论点。

When I read my friend Nick Kristof in the morning

当我早上读朋友 尼克·克里斯托夫时，

or when I have a conversation with my buddy Gail Collins,

或者当我和我的好友盖尔·柯林斯交谈时，

it's forcing me to think, it's like jumping into cold water,

它迫使我思考， 就像跳入冷水中一样，

not always immediately pleasant, but bracing and invigorating.

并不总是能立即愉快， 而是振作起来，精神焕发。

And we have to find all kinds of mechanisms in our lives

我们必须在生活

in which we make the art of disagreement come alive.

中找到各种 各样的机制，让分歧 的艺术变为现实。

Debate is something that I really believe in.

辩论是我真正相信的东西。

Also is a great exercise for kids.

对孩子们来说也是一项很棒的运动。

But at every level of discussion,

但是，在每个层面的讨论中，

figuring out how we, once again,

都要弄清楚我们如何再次

find ways to disagree agreeably,

找到达成共识的方法，

to find light rather than just friction and heat

从分歧的时刻中找到光明，

from those moments of disagreement.

而不仅仅是 摩擦和热量。

To understand what the other person is saying or even trying to say.

了解对方在说什么 ，甚至想说什么。

Because a lot of times you will encounter an opposing point of view,

因为很多时候你会遇到相反 的观点，

and that person isn't necessarily expressing him or herself well.

而且那个人不一定能很好地 表达自己的观点。

So the art of disagreement is also the art of listening.

因此，分歧的艺术 也是倾听的艺术。

And this is ironic for me to say,

我说这很讽刺，

because here I'm doing all the talking, right?

因为我在这里说的是 所有话，对吧？

But that art of listening

但是，

is every bit as vital to the health of democracy,

这种倾听艺术 对民主的健康同样重要，

in fact, more so than all the talking.

事实上，比所有说话都更重要。

So listen attentively,

因此，请专心倾听，在说话之前先

think before you speak, enjoy difference

思考，享受差异，

and democracy will become stronger.

民主就会变得更加强大。

YE: Well, that's a powerful way to end this conversation.

YE：嗯，这是结束对话 的有力方式。

Thank you so much, Bret.

非常感谢，布雷特。