What’s the Future of Food? A Chef + a Cardiologist Answer | @jonkung + Uma Valeti | Intersections

42,339 views

2024-09-17 ・ TED


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What’s the Future of Food? A Chef + a Cardiologist Answer | @jonkung + Uma Valeti | Intersections

42,339 views ・ 2024-09-17

TED


Please double-click on the English subtitles below to play the video.

00:00
Uma Valeti: I'm an optimist,
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and I think in order for us to be able to solve
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these immense challenges ahead of us,
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it's going to require
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the worldview of optimism,
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but a very pragmatic view of solutions.
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And going at it over and over again.
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Because what might not have worked a month ago or a week
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or even a year ago or a decade ago, would work now.
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Jon Kung: A focus on the optimism is, I think,
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what we need for like younger generations.
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And I do think, like, your work is one of those examples of good things.
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[Intersections]
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[Uma Valeti: Food pioneer]
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[Jon Kung: Chef, content creator]
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UV: The connection with food, it always goes back to childhood for me.
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And I grew up in the kitchen, so to speak, with my mom,
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trying to cook everything she did.
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I used to watch her, tried to help her chop vegetables,
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or go to the Sunday market with my dad and bring back meat and slice meat.
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And kind of wanted to cook from day one,
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but I realized some of my skills weren't great.
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So I went to school in India,
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and there was this hawker who was right outside our school.
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And I was fascinated with his work
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because he used to sell the fast foods of India
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called bhaji and things like that.
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But the way he chopped onions, just, I was hooked onto it
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because he would slice them up like, he'll take an onion,
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and in 10 seconds, the whole thing will be sliced and diced like, finely.
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I'm like, I'm going to master that.
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So I became the master slicer-dicer of onions in my house.
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And later on in food, obviously,
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look, it's the most creative expression of anything you can do in a daily life.
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And, I love to cook with my wife and kids,
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and it's just became part of my life.
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And I feel like it's also a way to fiercely express your creativity
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or independence and what you want that creation to be.
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So yeah, it's just deeply, deeply connected to food.
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JK: Wonderful.
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UV: What about yours?
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What's your personal connection to food?
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JK: My personal connection to food,
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as you had said, it is an expression of my creativity,
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but it is also a way that we express our culture
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and the way that we pass down our cultures.
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So growing up in Hong Kong as well as Toronto,
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food was very much a way that I was attached to the things
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that my parents loved as well as my grandparents.
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My own grasp on Cantonese language is very, very weak,
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because of all the traveling that we did when I was younger.
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So I felt like relearning cultural dishes was a way
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that I would easily get in contact with my roots.
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(Whispers) Without having to learn a language.
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(Laughter)
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But yeah, yeah.
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UV: What did food mean to you when you were growing up in Hong Kong?
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JK: I mean, food, I was very, very blessed.
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Hong Kong, as is India, has a very rich culinary history
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and actually shares a little similar ones in terms of, I would guess --
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UV: Is it the spices?
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JK: Well, imperialism.
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UV: Yes.
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JK: But yeah, our appreciation for spices and flavor.
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There's an internationality that was brought into there.
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So I was very spoiled for choice.
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In terms of what good food is,
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and I used that memory to kind of like,
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craft my entire skill set.
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Because I’m self-taught,
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and I had nothing to go off of except my earlier experiences with food.
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So luckily, like, Hong Kong taught me how to eat.
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And by that, I taught myself how to cook.
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UV: So was that experience one of those formative ones that made you say,
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"I want to cook in America"?
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JK: Yeah.
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The biggest reason was because where I was living,
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where I do live now, Detroit,
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at the time didn't have a lot of options for traditional Cantonese food
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that I missed.
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So out of necessity, which, as I think like,
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is a very common thread
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among a lot of students from Asia,
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is like they teach themselves how to cook
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because where they end up for school
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doesn't offer the food that they miss from home.
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UV: That's right.
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JK: And yeah, that was pretty much the basis of it.
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It just so happened that it turned into my career
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as opposed to just a hobby.
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What made you want to be a cardiologist, then?
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UV: Look, I grew up watching my grandfather,
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who had been taking care of patients all his life.
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JK: So he was a doctor as well?
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UV: He was a physician.
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I loved it when he would take care of people,
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and there would be this expression of, I think, gratitude.
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And my grandfather would not expect anything in return.
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He never charged a dollar for anyone.
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He was in the Gandhian movement and the freedom movement for India.
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And I just grew up adoring him.
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I'm like, "Ah, that would be cool."
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And then as I started learning more about medicine,
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I went to one of the medical schools in India,
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and realized very quickly that cardiology is one thing
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where you would get to save patients' lives,
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literally resuscitate patients who were dead in the field,
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resuscitate them and bring them back to life.
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And I found nothing more gratifying than being able to save someone's life.
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And then that relationship continues afterwards,
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because then there's a bond between you and the patient
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who now is not a patient anymore,
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back to living his own life or her own life.
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And then this bond with that person and their family kind of continues on.
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So I was really like, this is what I want to be in my life.
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JK: Would you say that intersectionality
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of like being able to tend and care for people
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is like, what crossed you over into this food space then?
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UV: You know, I didn't know back in 2015, 2016,
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when I was thinking of quitting cardiology
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and starting off on this crazy journey that I'm on right now,
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but looking back and reflecting on it,
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there is a lot of common threads
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where both are bound
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by a deep sense of purpose
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and a deep sense of building relationships
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and defying some of the things
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where people keep telling you it's impossible to do this.
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It's impossible to save someone's life.
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They're already dead in the field.
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You can't resuscitate them back.
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And here, we are looking at a ...
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Impending food crisis, climate crisis of such large proportions.
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And people keep saying it's impossible to do this.
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We cannot do this, we will not do this,
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people will not change, countries won't change.
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And I think this is a much bigger fight than saving an individual patient's life.
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But I think those common threads of saying, yes,
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these are possible by putting one foot in front of the other
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and starting to slowly make these things go away,
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and you climb one mountain,
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celebrate the victory for a moment,
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and then the next mountain is in front of you.
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JK: So that was your, kind of inspiration to start Upside?
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UV: Yeah, yeah.
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Upside Foods is a company that I started in late 2015.
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And the idea is, you know,
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the most delicious product in the world that we've known as humans is meat.
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JK: Yeah, I will agree with you.
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UV: No disrespect to salads or greens or beans,
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but meat is the center of plate for almost every tradition in the world.
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And a lot of our memories growing up
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and also with our families now are tied to cooking meat.
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And while it's the most beloved food,
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there's also this incredible challenge
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where we ignore how it comes to the plate.
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And we all know there's a troubling story of how meat comes to the plate.
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But we love it so much.
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We love the product so much, not the process so much,
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and there hasn't been a real solution for it until now.
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So we've continued our journey as being conflicted carnivores, let's say.
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And I thought it would be really cool
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if we can actually try to work on a solution
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where we can bring meat grown from animal cells
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directly to the plate.
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So we're not asking people to give up animal-based products,
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but incorporate that in the future.
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So the traditions can continue, the culture can continue.
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It's a big-tent solution where nearly people from all stripes can come together.
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And I've thought it will be a win-win, but this was at the time of an idea stage.
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It is really, really hard to do it.
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JK: To put it to practice.
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What's been the biggest challenge so far
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in getting people to, like, accept this kind of like new way of --
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it's not even like a product in a way,
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but it's like a new way of accepting what meat is
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and what meat could be.
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UV: Yeah, there have been challenges along the way,
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but this is unfolding in multiple chapters.
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So the challenges in the first chapter were,
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people loved the idea
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but did not believe that the science would work.
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So the first chapter was all about proof of science,
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showing that the science can work
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and that we can take cells from an egg or a chicken or a cow
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and grow meat directly from those cells.
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And once we started doing it,
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we started showing these products and cooking it in front of people
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and having hardcore meat eaters and chefs come and cook it.
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And it just melts, the disbelief melts
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into like, "Wow, this is possible."
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And then when they taste it,
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it just demystifies a lot of things
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because all the neurons that have been programmed
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to kind of recognize as meat will start firing in your brain.
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JK: Which I think is so interesting because like, a lot of people
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that would probably be like, your greatest detractors
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are like, the same type of person
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that would be uncomfortable eating chicken wings
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with bones in it still.
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Our perceptions of like, from animal to meat
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have been so far removed from what it actually is
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or where it actually comes from,
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that this does not seem like that much of a leap,
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considering how much we process the meat that we eat already.
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Like, it is unrecognizable once it comes to your grocery store anyway,
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compared to what it was when it was on the farm.
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So like, what's the difference here?
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Or like, why is this such a stretch?
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UV: Well, yeah, I mean,
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I think, I'd say this.
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I think nearly all major or transformative innovations
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that have happened in the world
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eventually triumphed despite formidable opposition.
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And the opposition here is,
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I think the fear of the unknown
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is actually higher
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than all the risks we are taking right now
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with the amount of animals we are raising in intense,
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confined places,
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that can increase the risk of pandemics or zoonotics
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or things just like food poisoning.
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Or draining ecosystems to feed the crops to the animals.
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Or even simply just like, what about animal welfare?
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Things of that nature.
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So that's the part that has been really interesting for us to learn
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that the fear of the unknown
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is more than the fear of what we are actually living with
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every second in our lives.
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And part of this is communicating better, demystifying it.
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And I think demystification should be very simple.
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Tasting the product, magical experience.
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Touring the place where it's made in clean production facilities,
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where you can just go around and walk around and say,
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"Hey, here's animal cells growing."
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And then the last thing is just meeting the people that are making it.
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You know, they're just like people in your neighborhood working, farming,
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the people that are working behind it.
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Like there’s Gen Z’s and millennials
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and people of all generations that are part of our team.
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Just talking to them, like, these are real people
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working on making real products and solutions.
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JK: I feel like if you demystified the traditional way of processing meat,
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they would all come flocking to this as well.
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I think so much of people’s acceptance of traditional meat
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is like rooted in what they don't know
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about the process of like,
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not just the cost of cruelty to animals or the environmental costs,
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but like the human cost of it as well.
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Like, these processing facilities are extremely harsh on like, the body.
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And I guess the wages are probably not very good as well.
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UV: Yeah, but coming back to you, I mean,
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you have been known to be creating a revolution in Detroit
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as a third-culture cook.
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And I would love to hear about your philosophy.
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What is that? What's your philosophy?
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JK: So when it comes, like, third-culture cooking
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or being a person of third culture is,
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actually you have the exact lived experience,
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is growing up with a predominant culture in your household,
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but your household just happens to be
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in a completely different culture altogether.
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So in my case, growing up Chinese in a North American household,
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crossing the cultural threshold every time you like, step out the door.
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I've been pushing this idea
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that like, that access to daily nuance in two different cultures
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gives you kind of like an in-depth knowledge on both
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in a way that somebody who just studies one
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or just like lived in one doesn't really have.
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And you see examples of this, like, all over the country,
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like, Koreatown in Los Angeles or Queens out here in New York.
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Just places where people are used to like, complete immersion
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in more than one culture on their day-to-day life.
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And that produces, creatively speaking,
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like a completely different kind of output.
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In my case, it's food.
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And it is like people will say, "Well, isn't that just fusion?"
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Which I don't believe should be considered a dirty word
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in culinary anymore.
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But yes, I think if you look back far enough,
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all food and all cooked food is fusion.
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UV: It is the melding of cultures as the communities grow
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and become more diverse.
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And so it's a beautiful expression.
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JK: Yes, and I was like, it's either rooted in creativity
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or cultural exchange, or even just adaptation.
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Necessity.
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One of the biggest things that I'm tackling right now
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is trying to get people to accept electricity into their home kitchens
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in lieu of, like, gas ranges.
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And I've been having a lot of pushback from a lot of Chinese community
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because of the way that we cook with woks.
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UV: I see.
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JK: They want that high BTU, high-powered thing,
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high-powered output to come out through the wok cooking.
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And I've been trying to explain it's like, it's just energy.
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Like, you can get that in a way,
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without having all these toxic fumes and using all this fuel.
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You can get that with induction now.
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And it's just a focused energy into the same pan
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that you've always been using.
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And in that, I do believe like, that's the adaptation element
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where it's like, we have to do better
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for not just, you know, the planet,
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but ourselves and our own personal health.
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And I think that's like where a lot of our missions intersect.
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UV: Yeah, I mean, I'm curious, what's your favorite food to cook?
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JK: Oh, me?
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UV: Using this type of ...
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JK: Chefy-chef answers, like, I like to cook eggs in it
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because, like, eggs give you such an immediate response
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and a visual cue in, like, their level of doneness.
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And that kind of allows you to match --
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because with flame, you have a visual cue.
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With induction, it’s just numbers, and it’s hard to quantify that.
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So an egg can give you that like, immediate visual feedback
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on like what that energy is doing.
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And by that, it's pretty much
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how I learned to cook traditional Chinese food in a wok
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without the help of a flame.
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UV: I see, OK.
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What's your take
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on how our cooking can evolve
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and our choice of foods can evolve
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to meet the crisis of climate?
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JK: I mean, if your project goes off the ground
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and gets into everyone's homes,
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I feel like that would be a big one.
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But I think ultimately we have to meet humans
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at where their desires are.
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We've tried very hard, since our generations were very young,
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to appeal to like, this is what we have to do.
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We have to be stewards of the planet and stuff.
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And yes, that is very much true.
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But on an individual level, humans are beings of desire,
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for better or for worse.
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And I think that is one of the problems
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that you are tackling, is meeting them at their desires
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and at their wants and at their comforts.
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We've tried with alternatives already,
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and I think like, this is probably the best way to do it.
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If we're going to tackle the climate crisis together, it's just like,
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meet them where their wants are.
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UV: I keep describing this as the catch-22,
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where we would want to have the solutions that preserve our choice.
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And we also do not want to have downsides to the choices we make.
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But there is a fair amount of wishful or magical thinking on our part,
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it’s just humanity, that if we ignore the downsides,
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they'll go away.
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But the debt is building up enormously,
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and it is striking at unexpected,
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you know in unexpected ways.
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And I mean, look at how we’re coming out of the pandemic,
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100-year pandemic.
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And we still do not know exactly how that took off like it.
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And millions of people died, millions of people.
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My father died.
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A healthy man running around, happy, veterinarian.
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In two weeks.
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And I think all of us are having more and more of these experiences.
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I think that is part of the debt that we’re building up.
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And I’m hoping that the catch-22 will get resolved
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by a lot more innovators
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and incumbent industry coming together,
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a lot more people crossing party lines,
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lots of businesses saying this is relevant for us,
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and just letting these conversations like this happen
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and showing people what's possible.
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And I'm really, you know, I'm an optimist.
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And I think in order for us to be able to solve
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these immense challenges ahead of us,
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it's going to require
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the worldview of optimism,
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but a very pragmatic view of solutions.
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And going at it over and over again,
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because what might not have worked a month ago or a week
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or even a year ago or a decade ago would work now.
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JK: I think that optimism is very, very important
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because it seems like with the younger generations,
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at least like, what I see on TikTok and Shorts and all and Reels,
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is that the fatalistic doom and gloom messaging
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has been very, very effective.
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To the point where young people almost feel -- not almost,
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they do feel helpless.
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And there was not enough of a focus
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to like, the good things that we were doing.
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Not in a sense that we need to, like, pat ourselves on the back,
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but like, you know, progress is happening.
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Technology is advancing, and people are doing work to prevent disaster
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or further disaster from happening.
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And we need to focus on those stories
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just so that we can encourage people to like, continue,
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like, doing what they can.
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Voting in a way that benefits the planet and humanity.
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And yeah, a focus on the optimism is, I think,
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what we need for younger generations.
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And I do think, like, your work is one of those examples of good things.
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UV: Yeah, we are in the intersection of an enormous amount of support
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but also enormous amount of resistance.
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Places like Florida and Alabama and Italy
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have banned
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and criminalized making cultivated meat.
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And it's all fresh in the last few weeks, months.
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But I do think cultivated meat offers a really big win for people
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and businesses and communities in these places
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and also across the world,
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because it is the one single thing
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that can bring people of multiple stripes under the big tent.
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You know, people who prize innovation,
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21:20
people who prize tradition,
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21:21
people who love eating meat
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21:24
and those who object to animal slaughter.
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21:27
And basically to simplify,
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21:29
people who love choice and people who love life.
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I think it's one of those things where we can bring people together
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21:34
and hopefully, eventually I think we’ll overcome these bans.
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JK: Yeah, I'm about to say like, hopefully through acceptance in other states
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and like, through examples and popularity that other places will show
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that this is a good product,
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this is a delicious product,
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that those bans would ultimately be lifted
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because they do seem like they were enacted out of ignorance and fear.
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And let's face it, protectionism.
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UV: There is a fair amount of that.
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And I think part of our work is to reach out
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as opposed to, you know,
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picking up and trying to just create more polarization.
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Our goal is to reach out and let those communities
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and the people who wanted us to earn our right,
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see how we're going to earn our right by bringing people together.
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So that's part of my personal goal.
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So we'll be doing more work in Florida, Alabama and if needed to be, in Italy.
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JK: Well, if I can help in any way, I'd be happy to.
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UV: Well, thank you, Jon, I really appreciate it.
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Well, Jon, it's really been fun to talk to you
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and a cool fact was, I got my start in Detroit.
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And I think of the Motor City
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as the one that got my motor going on innovation,
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and I'm so glad that we intersect.
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And the fact that we both have connections to Detroit.
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So I'd love to come and visit your restaurant.
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JK: I would love for you to come.
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Detroit really has always been a city of innovation
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whether it comes to like, entrepreneurship or creativity.
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I think it's been an underdog for far too long
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and really deserves its flowers.
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But the fact that it managed to produce both of us and we ended up here.
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I mean ...
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UV: Look, Detroit has been the heart of the automotive transformation.
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And I keep telling: there’s a food transformation happening,
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23:14
and I'm happy to draw my roots from having an experience in Detroit
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that kind of influenced me
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to keep going on in search of cardiology
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and then going on in search of trying to say,
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can we make meat better and bring cultivated meat into the world?
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So I love Detroit, so I'm going to come and visit your restaurant.
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JK: We will be happy to have you back.
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UV: Thank you Jon. JK: Thank you.
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About this website

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